Hi Guys - thanks again for replying

If any of you get a few mins, please do leave a review in the new review section - no matter how short. I was surprised, and I guess disappointed that someone I know (who is getting a pup) purchased a book by one of the 'celebs' (you know, the one that kicks dogs in the name of training!). Anyway, just think your reviews will be helpful - esp for nubes.

There are basically two areas of research of interest to me as a dog trainer. There are the studies of natural Woolf behaviour that continue to debunk a lot of age old theories about pack hierarchy, “dominance” etc. Then there are lab based studies into learning that follow on from the work of Skinner et al.

I’ve been trying to get more background on the Model/Rival approach to training. We are all familiar with Operant Conditioning but Model/Rival appears to offer a complimentary approach that taps into something we’ve known all along...dogs learn from watching other dogs.

Could it be that Caesar Milan’s methods using “the power of the pack” work because they are an example of Model/Rival training and nothing to do with pack dynamics as imagined by Caesar himself?

hey I didnt even realise we had a new book review section! (brill)

Reading through the thread I see that there was mention of 'certain celeb bashing' going on - Azz perhaps your friend would like Bonding with your Dog by Victoria Schade as a new puppy gift?

There is a little (yet not too much) mention of 'certain TV dog trainers' and why their methods can break trust in there, it is still 'american' and is full of suggestions for games, basic training ideas and is based on positive methods. It is written more or less with reference to past clients and the authors own dogs/experiences etc mentions different ways to reward (praise, touch, play, food..) using distractions...

May be a gentle way to get them onto a more positive approach?

I also liked The Dog Vinci Code by John Rodgerson. In fact it was a good reminder to me of certain things and just in the past couple of weeks I have found that I have been taking a toy more for fun rather than a 'need' etc so that is a good one too. In fact I will probably keep it and maybe give it a read over now and again so I don't 'forget' things in future!

I see someone (sorry cant remember who) mentioned John Fisher; I bought Dogwise and had a quick flick through and mainly kept seeing reference to pack order type stuff although admittedly used alongside positive methods and not 'little mexican ways' it kind of put me off in a way so I have not actually read it!! I probably should/will though.

I think that the CC or 'dont shoot the dog' are still good books, I was thinking of getting IDoD's but wasnt sure it was worth it? As others have said....perhaps more of the same?

Maybe a good present for their 'new arrival' coming home would be a few books and a clicker?; Bonding with your dog, Clicker training for dogs (Karen Pryor) and Dog Vinci Code ?

This way they have the american style, reasons why certain training methods may cause them problems, a very effective and positive, fun way to train behaviours and then the Dog Vinci Code which I think goes more into the way they communicate through their verbal and body language, looking into breeders....

I found the style of those books upbeat, clear and easy to understand and that may be key with getting someone from the 'celeb trend' to positive ways...?

EDIT; unless they are not big on reading in which case go with the Culture Clash LOL

How do you think that would work in John Fishers method? He is still about pack order by the looks of it (in Dogwise) but advocates the use of positive methods. (from what I have seen of it)

I understand that not long before he passed away suddenly some years ago, John Fisher refuted pack theory, and turned his back on it.

Allomimetic behaviour has been discussed for years with dogs, John Rogerson to name but one.......

Yes, he did . Documented in his last book, Diary of a "Dotty Dog" Trainer. Most peeps have read his other books.

I do think his books are worth reading, but these days they have to be read with this in mind. I loved the way he got things across though - a great sense of humour and kindness for dogs and owners alike

Wys
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I trained one of my dogs---a rescue collie/retriever x--- totally by Dog Wise. It worked brilliantly.

I had great admiration for John Fisher and he had a good amount of common sense as well as an ability to take any new ideas and fit them round his own and make sense of them.

The last time I saw him he had begun to take clickering on board---he would have loved it!

I have started a new thread for the pack theory aspect.

rune

It is interesting. I looked into this a little for a course I did recently. No expert though. You might enjoy reading these (sorry if you've already seen them):

http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com...l-rival-method includes video and "critique" of the 2003 study. (The conclusion of that study was that Model/Rival was as effective as operant conditioning. As Pat McConnell points out, the sample was small).

http://www.dogbehaviorblog.com/2009/...rain-dogs.html

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...01111/abstract
The above is a recent study.

It's all interesting stuff.
(Sorry Azz, a tad off topic, but interesting?)

Wys
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Cool! Did you find the loose lead walking with the (was it a flexi lead he suggested?) worked? I always wondered, I could quite see why it could

I so wanted to meet him. Apparently, he got an award for being - aagh, something like "the best of men" which he was quietly pleased about.

I would have loved to see him be part of "today". I know he'd bring balance, fun, understanding and just good dog training with him

Wys
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