"In the mid-1800s, Terriers of all kinds were bred and used as pit fighting dogs in England."

Perhaps the breeders were not such purists then? Perhaps an outstanding pit terrier was bred to an outstanding bull-dog just to see what the result would be? If the progeny were found to be keener than the parents then maybe more such crosses and breeding back occurred, resulting in the Stafford of today? Maybe the name of the founding breeds just stuck and was carried forward?

Just a thought from someone whose knowledge of SBTs history is minimal to say the least

I understand both your ideas, but when you cross two breeds, the initial cross can sometimes be as good possibly better, with the hybrid vigour that the cross allows, but almost all resulting matings to the first crosses, do not compare to either the first cross or the original two breeds used, but thank you for replying it makes me think, The Duke of Hamilton bred only fighting bulldogs, as there is no record of bull baiting in Scotland, but his fighting bulldogs were highly regarded.

Going slightly off subject here HD or anyone do you think the Stafford should be in the terrier group? now there is a question.
Karen

I think the terrier group is fine, the Staffords traits are very similiar to those of most terriers, I can't think of any other group that the Stafford has that much in common with,

Sort of related to this, I always wonder why instead of including SBTS & EBTS in the terrier catorgory in crufts, why dont they have a bullbreed catagory... it just looks weird that there are all these terriers then a staff, and I always wonder whether it would be fairer to have a separate sections, with bullbreed enthuthiasts (sp?) voting... I dont know how Crufts works really... so it might be a stupid question!!!

Edited to say - sorry Kazz, I have just seen you have bought this up....

Hello Cooper, crufts is run like a military tattoo, as are most all breed Champ shows, to give another category to Staffs and EBTs, would upset the regimentation, although it would be good if it could be done.

do staffies have any "ratting/mousing" instincts?

Mine stalk anything that moves from a centipede to an elephant, they would certainly catch rats,

Hi michelled
Mine is very alert, checks out anything that moves or any noise in or out of bushes. When he sees squirrels or birds will creep up until they go to run away or fly off and then breaks into a sprint. Most Staffs that I know are very alert and possess instincts to chase and hunt.

Richard stratton has it covered in his book "The World of the American Pit Bull Terrier". Mr. Stratton has serious doubts that there could be much Terrier in the different Bull and Terrier breeds. I will try to sum it up. Game has been described in many ways but to put it simply it is the will to keep going no matter what, never quit, ever. The ultimate test to see if a dog is game is in the blood sports, namely dog on dog. The original bulldog was game. Gameness is an illusive and much harder to maintain than any show dog attributes. A history of American Pit Bull Terriers shows that even dead game champions bred to game b##ches was likely to produce its share of curs. With this in mind, how many times would you have to loose a one third terrier before you learned? Now some have speculated that at some time in history a game terrier roamed the earth. Some say they were white in color. As Mr. Stratton points out, Terriers are ratters and it doesn't take much game to hang in there against a rat. How could there ever have existed a game terrier?

Mr. Stratton also mentions a time period when commoners where not allowed to own bulldogs because they could be used to poach stock from the land owners, but they could own terriers which were prized for there ability to control the rat population and remember rats spread diseases so everyone wanted their numbers controlled. Mr. Stratton suggested that through selective breeding the common folk bred a smaller bulldog that they could pass off as a Terrier. He also admits that there likely was some Terrier infusion but, for the reason of gameness lost, this sort of thing was probably rare.

I own American Bulldogs, American Pit Bull Terriers, and I usually keep a boxer around too. The American Bulldog was almost unknown to the rest of the United States and the world up until ten or twelve years ago, outside the southeastern U.S. It is believed that these dogs entered through seaports in Georgia and South Carolina with the Englishmen who came here as indentured servants. It is also believed that the "American" Bulldog is the direct descendant of the original working "English" bulldog that survived as a catch dog on farms across the southeastern United States. The Bulldogs that remained in England were crossed with the pug to create a more manageable dog for the shows. Two men are credited with saving the breed from extinction although there are American Bulldog lines that have survived to this present day without the help of Alan Scott or John D. Johnson.

In the past, all breeds were working dogs. The truth is all the "bull and terrier" breeds were developed to be fighting dogs. Some just didn't cut it and were relegated to a position of "guard dog" or "couch potato". You'll never read it in the different breeds history because dog fighting is taboo but, the Boston Terrier was an attempt at a smaller Pit Dog. The 60/40 Bull and Mastiff was an attempt at producing a larger one, and so on.

As far as groups go, the "bull and terriers" are about as out of place as a fox in the hen house. It’s just ridiculous.