Hi Elmac

As I said before, I am not a breeder, so this is only my opinion.

Firstly, when you bought the dog was the fact that only one testicle had descended pointed out to you? Did the breeder know that you may want to show the dog and breed from him in the future? Was it discussed what would happen if the other testicle didnt drop?

The reason I ask these questions is that I personally wouldnt buy a dog that I intended to breed from or show that had only one testicle that had dropped at 8 weeks. I just wouldnt take the chance. I am by no means a novice in dogs but I am no expert either. However, I do know that when I bought my working cocker the breeder got me to check both testes had descended, his eyes were clear, he had no bulgy tummy (worms!), ears were clean and his bite was scissor bite and not over or undershot.

Now, I have never wanted to breed from my boy so he is neutered but I know that everything was in order when I bought him. I bought him from a well respected breeder of many years. He has always been there for me when I was training etc.,

I also bought a Bracco with an overshot bite but got her at half price as a pet. My second is a show dog so I made sure everything was in order before I bought her ie bite etc.,

Its very difficult to say what is the responsibility of the breeder and what is just "nature". I would imagine that the testicle would not have dropped at 8 weeks and so you wold have been aware of that fact. If you were told that it would drop and it hasnt then that is a different story. However, a breeder would then offer to take the dog back and refund your money. But, by now you are attached to him!!!!

Another thing to remember is that an undescended testicle can be quite dangerous for a dog in later life as it can cause tumours etc., The testicle may still drop as he is only 6 months but I dont know how long I would wait and see.

I hope this helps. Its all down to what the breeder was aware that you wanted to do with the dog when you bought him. If you could let us know then perhaps we could give a more rounded opinion.

regards
Spettadog

BTW what part of Edinburgh are in you. I live outside Edinburgh in the country but originally come from Edinburgh and my parents still live there!!!

We didn't even know about checking for testicles and the breeder never mentioned them. Nothing was mentioned about showing either. I'm afraid we were rather naive back then. As you say there was never any question about having him returned but I just feel that any decent sort of person might have refunded some of the money when we told them. However we never suggested this so I suppose it was up to us really.

We live in Craigleith.

Elmac13, ethical breeders don't sell puppies as stud dogs or as show dogs for that matter. They sell them as pets with potential. Anything can go wrong (and regularly does), but a live animal cannot be sold with a cast iron guarantee. It's absolutely impossible to tell what the finished article will look like.

Dawn R.

Hi there

The most important thing would be for me to find the right home for the puppy and then ask the potential owner what they want to do with the puppy. Would they want to show him etc., If the answer was yes then I would make sure that they got one of the pups that showed the most potential. I certainly agree that there are no cast iron guarantees when you are dealing with live animals. However, I do think there is a big difference between buying a dog and it perhaps doesnt make show standard and buying a dog that develops a problem that means it cannot be shown nor can it be bred from.

I think that if the breeder did their vetting properly they would know exactly what each potential puppy owner was looking for and would be able to match the puppies to the right owners. I do think that it should have been highlighted when you bought him though as the breeder was bound to know if they were experienced. If they were inexperienced then maybe not!

I know that you were not talking about this from a rehoming point of view. There's more to dogs that just showing or breeding but it is a huge disappointment if you wanted to show and found out that you couldnt.

I think if it were me and I knew you wanted to show then I would advise you to wait a while and see what happens. If the testicle didnt drop then I would refund some of the money as a gesture of goodwill and to show that I care. That is if you didnt want to rehome him. If you wanted to do that then I would refund all your money.

I am still learning about dogs. I dont think you ever know enough. That's the good thing about forums. They are a wealth of information.

Spettadog

PS: I was born and brought up in Corstorphine. Not that far away from you. Do you ever walk at Cammo? If so, you have probably seen me at some time with my gang. I dont tend to walk there much these days because where I live now I am surrounded by fields but I do try to get there about once a week so that the dogs still have some socialisation.

Dogs like any other living thing can have things go wrong with them. Those of us who breed for the love of our breed will ensure that we carry out all the tests necessary but unfortunately we cannot always ensure that something won't go wrong.

You do know tht the Accredited Breeders Scheme isn't worth a jot? The KC only ask for health tests to be carried out they feel necessary. If a breed club has a list of health tests that they require to be done before a dog is bred, the KC do not request the same health tests to be put onto the ABS!! A Club has to request that these tests are included and even then it doesn't mean that they will be!

Spettadog, there were only two pups in the litter and the other one was already taken.What kind of annoys me is that they must have known that only one testicle had dropped at that point and they might have mentioned it. I expect we would have taken him anyway but as you say it was a bit disappointing to think that even a vague notion of showing in the future was now out of the question. I would like to think that I would have been a bit fairer if I had been the breeder.

We used to live in Corstorphine and have been to Cammo a couple of times. Sam is a bit grumpy with other dogs now so we try to go to quieter places. I envy you your empty fields!

Hi again

I think you're right. This should have been pointed out to you at the time of purchase as its very disappointing to know that you can't show even if you end up not doing it. It kinda takes things out of your hands doesn't it?

You could write a letter quoting the Sale of Goods Act to them advising them that you want them to cover the cost of his neutering. The vet will advise you to have him done because of the possibility of tumours etc as the undescended testicle will still be inside his body.

At least if they have to pay for that they will be more careful in the future. Normally neutering isnt covered under nsurance but I think in an instance like this it would be covered so, if you're insured, you will only be able to get the cost of the excess from them.

I'm really sorry this has happened to you. Which dog are we talking about? Is it your cocker or welshie? Was the breeder a well known breeder?

Yes, I am very lucky now living in the country but that comes with its own problems at well ie pheasant pens etc., where the dogs go nuts and I wouldnt be very popular if the dogs got hold of one!!!! I have to be very careful.

Spettadog

Well, he is 5 now so it was all a long time ago. He was operated on to remove the missing testicle but there wasn't one! He has since had his only one removed. He is a Welshie. I was just interested in others' viewpoints. Too late to do anything now.

Yes I see what you mean regarding the birds etc. My two chase anything that moves!

This act I believe would only to registered breeders (trader) ie someone who breeds more than 4 litters per year.
And I don't believe the breeder has to pay for medical intervention if the new owners does not want to give the pup back.
If the breeder has done all the right things whilst breeding and not over sold the pup then I don't think there would be a legal case to answer

I think if the dog is sold as show potential then the new owner must have mentioned they want to show, I would have thought if that new owner stated this then at the time of picking they should have checked themselves as to wether the dog had correct bite, both testicles, correct colour etc, if they did not specify then I would have thought the breeder would have possibly sold them a pet quality pup obviously I would have also thought the breeder would have mentioned any defects the dog may have had, its quite possible that the breeder did mention this but as in this case the buyer didnt have intention to start off with of showing, the buyer may not have taken everything on board that was told to them at the point of sale? did they buyer sign any contracts at point of sale stating the dog was of show quality? or of pet quality? as for the neutering side and payment of, this is IMO the responsibility of the owner wether the testicles have decended of not, in my contracts (which the new owners read before I even accept them onto my list) it states that I cannot guarantee show quality, that pups may have show potential, and there is a section where I can write in wether a particular pup was sold as show potential or pet quality, it also states that pet quality pups are to be neutered spayed by 18 months and I will refund a certain figure on proof of this, the figure is the same to anyone that is neutering an entire male or one with undecended testicles, this is just a gesture of good will to the new owners only. it sounds to me like the dog in question was actually a pet that the owner then decided they wanted to show, if this is the case then IMO its not the breeders fault they probably sold the dog as pet quality, it is the new owners that have moved the goal post not the breeder.

Mo