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Malka
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06-06-2014, 10:58 AM
Originally Posted by Kittylittle View Post
Interesting, as I thought.

I agree too, a nervous dog should not be bred from whatsoever.

However somewhere else someone who is breeding from a nervous bitch like this is putting themselves up as a very ethical breeder and others believe it a good idea and are encouraging.

Apparently to get a showing prospect from the bitch.

The bitch is shown, however not successfully.

I thought only the soundest of dogs should be bred from so I wondered to myself why it was being held up as the perfect way to breed ethically.
And the bitch has never been shown successfully?
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Florence
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06-06-2014, 11:05 AM
Easy answer: no.
First of all, because if fearfulness and nervousness is a genetic trait, it can be passed down.
Secondly, if the bitch is anxious and stressed due to her experiences/environment, she will teach this behaviour to her puppies.
And thirdly, why would you want a stressed/anxious bitch to be put through the stresses of pregnancy and birth? And rearing puppies?

No respecable breeder would do this, because temperament is just as important as health and looks.
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Jackie
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06-06-2014, 11:15 AM
Originally Posted by Malka View Post
And the bitch has never been shown successfully?
To be fair Malka, not all show dogs produce the best pups, some of the best show dogs can produce mediocre Pups and mediocre brood bitches can produce champions, it's all in the knowledge of the breeder, and a good dose of luck...mind that being said, what ever you breed from should be of sound temperament , as let's face it most pups go to pet homes and temperament is essential .....

I am afraid there are plenty of show dogs out there that temperaments are not 100% , and breeders who can only see their next champion, regardless of what it's bred from.

It may well be this girl does not do well in the ring due to temperament rather than conformation, regardless though it should not be bred from.
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Malka
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06-06-2014, 11:44 AM
I know Jackie - but from what I understand, the owner of the bitch wants to breed from her in the hope of getting a show-worthy pup from the breeding.

And of course there is no guarantee that that could happen.
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mjfromga
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06-06-2014, 02:37 PM
Yup, simple answer is no. Temperament can be up to 80% bred and there is not a solid reason to breed a dog with a funny, jumpy temperament. Puppies might turn out fine, but why risk it?
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Kittylittle
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13-06-2014, 02:04 PM
So the general consensus is absolutely no, which is what I believe to be true.

It's very strange the number of people who advocate the most ethical of breeding who encourage someone to breed from such a nervous bitch. Not least for the fact of maybe rejecting the puppies, but add to it the pups could also have a nervous disposition and the consequences of that going forward.
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SarahJade
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13-06-2014, 06:47 PM
Yeah not good. Most typical pet owners are aware (or at least I hope aware) that they should see the mum when getting a new pup. It is even mentioned on sites like preloved and gumtree in places.
If even these companies make a point to tell people surely ALL breeders should know this? I wouldn't take a pup from a nervous bitch, never mind buy one!
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catrinsparkles
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13-06-2014, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by Kittylittle View Post
So the general consensus is absolutely no, which is what I believe to be true.

It's very strange the number of people who advocate the most ethical of breeding who encourage someone to breed from such a nervous bitch. Not least for the fact of maybe rejecting the puppies, but add to it the pups could also have a nervous disposition and the consequences of that going forward.
Not strange...just out right greed and addicted to the thrill of showing and the possibility of winning. All ethics swept aside for the possibility of one of these pups being "the one".

I firmly believe that, in some people, breeding and showing for the possibility of winning is an addiction.

I used to do dog sitting and I was once set to a breeders house by the agency. They had 2 choc labs, 2 yellow labs, 2 black labs, all adults and a 4 month old black lab pup, plus a cav. The house was a very modest size and all the dogs were kept in the dog room, which was no way big enough, with a tip and tilt patio door that was not to be left open, only to be put on top...and this was during a heat wave. The dogs were not allowed water in the room as they would only knock it over and splash it all over the place. They were not allowed on the grass as they were ruining it, and they had three kennels built in the garden but they couldn't be left in there as they would climb the fence to escape. They weren't allowed in the rest of the house as they would just run amock and ruin everything.
Why have the dogs then? What are they getting out life and their "relationship" with their person.....very little. The thrill of a possible win was more improtant than the day to day general welfare and mental stimulation of her dogs, which she seemed to be collecting like dinky cars or beanie babies. No training or socialization took place, apart from ring craft of course and sell the dogs were nervous of strangers and other dogs. I was disgusted and with in ten minutes of her leaving I had the dogs out of the dog room running round the garden and then settle calmly in the lounge. I was there for a week and requested never to be sent back their again. I don't believe she is the only breeder/shower like this unfortunately.

I also met a collie pup who was crated almost continually because they wanted an obedience winner. Ignored all the time she was crated and when not created she had to work for everything, every second of the time she was out...every single day. No other interaction apart from training, she had to work for everything. Sick people in my opinion.
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Jackie
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13-06-2014, 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by catrinsparkles View Post
Not strange...just out right greed and addicted to the thrill of showing and the possibility of winning. All ethics swept aside for the possibility of one of these pups being "the one".

I firmly believe that, in some people, breeding and showing for the possibility of winning is an addiction.

I used to do dog sitting and I was once set to a breeders house by the agency. They had 2 choc labs, 2 yellow labs, 2 black labs, all adults and a 4 month old black lab pup, plus a cav. The house was a very modest size and all the dogs were kept in the dog room, which was no way big enough, with a tip and tilt patio door that was not to be left open, only to be put on top...and this was during a heat wave. The dogs were not allowed water in the room as they would only knock it over and splash it all over the place. They were not allowed on the grass as they were ruining it, and they had three kennels built in the garden but they couldn't be left in there as they would climb the fence to escape. They weren't allowed in the rest of the house as they would just run amock and ruin everything.
Why have the dogs then? What are they getting out life and their "relationship" with their person.....very little. The thrill of a possible win was more improtant than the day to day general welfare and mental stimulation of her dogs, which she seemed to be collecting like dinky cars or beanie babies. No training or socialization took place, apart from ring craft of course and sell the dogs were nervous of strangers and other dogs. I was disgusted and with in ten minutes of her leaving I had the dogs out of the dog room running round the garden and then settle calmly in the lounge. I was there for a week and requested never to be sent back their again. I don't believe she is the only breeder/shower like this unfortunately.

I also met a collie pup who was crated almost continually because they wanted an obedience winner. Ignored all the time she was crated and when not created she had to work for everything, every second of the time she was out...every single day. No other interaction apart from training, she had to work for everything. Sick people in my opinion.
Your making an awful lot of assumptions here , your assuming a win was more important than anything else, because... They have 8 dogs, because they can't go on the grass, or have free run of the house, amongst other things, plenty if people have multiple dogs in small houses, not everyone likes their dogs all over the house, or on the grass, these things don't amount to sick people .........

The crating of the collie pup almost continually does not make sense to wanting an obedience winner....how does crating it make it a obedience winner surely they would have to spend time training it..

NILF ... is a training method where a dog has to work for everything, does that make the owners sick to.

I'm surprised the dogs were nervous of other people and dogs seeing as they attended ring craft, you may not know this but ring craft IS an excellent form of socialisation , plus if the dogs are nervous they are not going to show, seems a contradictory to what you are accusing her of.
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catrinsparkles
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13-06-2014, 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by Jackie View Post
Your making an awful lot of assumptions here , your assuming a win was more important than anything else, because... They have 8 dogs, because they can't go on the grass, or have free run of the house, amongst other things, plenty if people have multiple dogs in small houses, not everyone likes their dogs all over the house, or on the grass, these things don't amount to sick people .........

The crating of the collie pup almost continually does not make sense to wanting an obedience winner....how does crating it make it a obedience winner surely they would have to spend time training it..

NILF ... is a training method where a dog has to work for everything, does that make the owners sick to.

I'm surprised the dogs were nervous of other people and dogs seeing as they attended ring craft, you may not know this but ring craft IS an excellent form of socialisation , plus if the dogs are nervous they are not going to show, seems a contradictory to what you are accusing her of.
The crating was so that the only interaction the dog every knew and craved was the form of training. So it was completely obsessed with performing behaviours that would get the reward and all those behaviours were steps needed for obedience. I did see it out of the crate and it would not look at anyone or any dog, only it's owners and it was in heel position all the time unless asked to do something else. The only non obedience command used was the one for it to go to the toilet. Then it was back in its crate and no one was allowed to even look at it and were firmly told to leave it alone if they even glanced at it. This was at an APDT training day. The owners said that some people think this is cruel but this is how the best dogs in the states are trained and this pup will be an obedience champion.

The dogs in the breeders house could not move without touching another dog, the dog room was that small. I'm fact they were always in contact with another dog. The woman told me that she never planned or have so many dog but she just loved showing and breeding. She said she thought the pup would be her last but she didn't know what she would do once that pup went as far as it could go in the show world. I do think it's a sick to keep that many dogs in such a cramped condition, with no acces to water apart from when she deemed it was time for them to drink, no chews or bones because "it would only cause arguments", and one 20 minute walk a day..it couldn't be any more because she could only manage to walk them in pairs and did walkign them for any longer would take too long. No room to play, get away from each other, no water, etc ...the same four walls all the time apart from a half hour walk! In the dog room all of them paced continuously, cried at the door to the garden or the door to kitchen ....but when I took them in the lounge very quickly they settled down and seemed to enjoy the space away from each other.

I think making a dog work for absolutely everything in life is very controlling and uneccesary.
I'm not making assumptions I'm relaying what I saw and what the owners directly told me.
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