I see it the same way Ace- it's a way of getting the dog's attention. I have to say I've never seen him do it in a way that would hurt a dog.

But like you say, it's all subjective. It could look to some people as if he is hurting the dogs.

I've used the foot touch with Bryan and it does work to bring his focus back to me. It's literally a touch with the toe of my shoe on his side near the back leg. Not even a tap - just a touch.

I saw a programme (I think it was the new series) recently with a couple of GRs who were very scred by the kick thing and did try to avoid him and his foot....I have seen a few dogs jump back and avoid. That's why I ask people to watch it and focus on the dog and it's body language when he does things like that, you can pick up on so much more (and IMO don't miss anything by not hearing him go on!!!! )

Yeah thats exactly it. If I accidentally trod on my Cocker Spaniels toe she yelps like a real baby - squeals and all sorts. You could hear her from a good mile away I reckon on a clear day. That is a melodramatic dog experiencing something that must hurt a bit. But if she gets a bit excited and I ever have to use the "touch with my heel" trick outside she doesn't even utter peep or really care. She'll run into my legs far harder than I'd ever dream of "nudging" her with mine back. So its all swings and roundabouts.

You only have to watch two dogs having a rough and tumble game in a park to see that unless you really lay into a dog, it isn't going to hurt it. So doing Cesars short tap with the foot or lower leg, in my opinion, really isn't a problem at all.

... just read your post Ramble. Yup, fair point, maybe I've just never seen any programme where a dog has seemed remotely bothered by it.

Surely the difference in that is that 2 dogs are playing together and you are the trainer, not playing, but shaping behaviour. You cannot tell if it hurts the dog or not, they are very stoic about pain. It is totally differnet standing on a paw...there is shock involved, whereas if you kick a dog in training the dog is much more liekly to accept it, if they are the methods you use. You just have to look at a dog pulling into a check chain and gasping for breath to see that, it doesn't matter if it hurts, it still does it as it accepts that is the way it walks...but if you trod on the same dogs foot it would scream. You can't compare the things I don't think.

I think the trouble is, as he kicks the dogs, he starts to go on and talks to the owners a lot, explaining and justifying the kick. As a result your attention is drawn from the dog to him and the owners reaction. That's another reason it's good to watch with no sound.

I don't quite get what your'e saying Ramble. Dogs are stoic about pain, but you've seen them on the programme being scared by getting a tap from CM?

Are you saying they're sacred of him or that he is physically hurting them?

I'm confused (doesn't take much I know )!

Both.
They are stoic about pain, which means that they won't necessarily cry or scream out if they are hurt, but they will avoid the thing that caused the pain, in this case CM and his foot. They look scared(body language) and avoid him. I cannot remember seeing a dog on the show where I though 'ohh they love him how nice' whereas I have with other trainers, both ones that I know personally and others on TV...even Mic Martin!!!!

Ah I understand now. Out of my two, A is very stoic and won't yelp or fuss about anything. Bryan on the other hand is very vocal and will yelp about most things.

I think it's because he is a man

I know what you mean about the dogs not looking like they 'love' CM. I think that's down to his approach. He doesn't want the dogs to love him. He wants to show the family how to treat the dog like a dog. Whether that's right or wrong is down to personal opinion. Some people can still love dogs without being all soppy over them (but I'm not one of them, I'm very soppy).

I'll give it a go later if its on Nat Geo Wild again - I'll watch it in mute mode for a bit and see what I think then. Doubt I'll change my mind but I'll certainly give it a go. Think I'll have already seen it in mute mode as my little one (18 months old) has a thing for putting the TV into mute mode on regular occasions!! Will definitely give it a try though.

Yup, fair point about trodding on a toe being different to dogs playing around with one another. Again though, t'was just an example over how vigorously dogs will play around and yet not be bothered by what, to us, would be absolute agony.

Another example. My Cocker Spaniel, the nutter that she is, often runs shoulder first into a wall in our garden (she'll look around at us but carry on running forwards... ) - if we did that we'd either be unconscious on the floor or at the very least be knocked out of stride and feel a bit dodgy from it. She, on the other hand, just continues on as if nothing has happened. Just another example of how pain varies from species to species and indeed how our brains interpret it.

Not that I'm saying I think the dogs on "The Dog Whisperer" are actually subjected to any pain anyway, and certainly not from a side-nudge from the foot/lower leg.

Dogs react very differently towards different stimuli to how a human would. I think the only thing Cesar is trying to get across when he does his side nudge/"kick" thing is an approach to get the dog off balance/get the dogs brain to click out of the obsessive pull-pull-pull or yank-yank-yank the owner across the road or whatever. And in this instance, this method can and does work and I don't feel it to be one jot of a problem regarding subjecting the dog to any pain or abusive or harsh training.

I don't condone or indeed impliment any harsh or abusive training methods myself yet I do sometimes suggest owners impliment the side-nudge thing with the foot or lower leg (dependant on size of dog, ultimately, as to whether its foot or lower leg height).

With me being new here, I'm obviously not well up on what people do for a living around here. Are you a trainer or behaviourist also, Ramble?