awe sorry picked it up wrong would not be like me eh

like rip we band our tails and they drop of naturally and the pups dont seem to feel a thing. Also we do it at 48 hours old.

just a last thought on duel purpose dogs. Welsh springers are not a splir breed with working and show like cockers and english, we show and work the same dog. it will be a night mare for a lot of my friends and I can see the end of the working welshie which would be a great pity.
The problem is at 48 hours old is too hard to spot the show dag and the worke so we'll probably have to leave the whole litter undocked to show, and I doubt any one would try to work a undocked dog.

How are they altered in type for agility, flyball and obedience ?
What evidence do you have to support something you claim as `definate` ?
In what ways are my dogs [ for example ] physically altered to do agility ?
I`m assuming you don`t mean the fact that their fitness, muscle tone, and cardiovascular system is improved, which is highly beneficial to their long term health and in that regard, those elements, which are not changed as such but are enhanced, are certainly nothing which could be considered negative are they ?

People with pet dogs go to a few classes, see if the dogs have an aptitude for whichever activity, and if they do they keep going.
That does`nt involve physically altering a dog.

Temperament wise, whichever activity the dogs do well at is usually because thats what the dogs own natural behaviours enable them to do, ie a boistrous, hyper, fun loving dog usually does well in agility, a dog mad about toys and balls can do well at flyball, [ as well as agility ], and a calmer dog can do well at obedience [ for instance ].
There are all sorts of reasons people do obedience of course, for basic skills and general safety for day to day life if nothing else.

Many dogs considered a handful or unruly are so because they are bored and their brains don`t have enough to do. Should those dogs be left to get more and more brain starved and develop all sort of habits detrimental to the dogs wellbeing until they get to the point of being dumped through lack of understanding and owner skills, or should they be given opportunities to learn things in ways which are, [ or should be ], fun, during which their owners are taught how to understand and communicate better with their dogs through classes / activities of some sort ?

If a positive temperament change and all important safety elements like good recall and good socialisation occur as a result, how can that possibly be considered a bad thing by anyone ?


Hopefully this line of posts will be split though, as it still bears absolutely no relevence whatsoever to removing part of a dogs spine or any other part of its physical anatomy in order to participate in those activites

I have to sya Dawn, good on you, that's an offer and a half that is and good of you to make it.
Having said that...I really and truly don't want to see it, being a veggie wimp. :smt002
Please could I join you for the drinking side after it????!!!! :smt002

Rips, I agree with what you said about the examples I gave totally. I was (and am!) v. tired.
I am going to ponder some...and will get back to you...:smt002

i posted this last night everyone, as I've been realy chuffed at how calm and pleasant this thread has been.
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php...d=1#post840395

Yes, there is a trait in dogs that gives a natural dock. The pups are born with very short tail or tailless and it occurs in some of the breeds that are customarily docked. The inheritance is a monogenetic dominant, so easy to monitor and manipulate.

UK geneticist and longterm Boxer breeder Dr Bruce Cattanach started a breeding programme some years ago, in anticipation of this ban, to introduce the bobtail gene from the Pembrokeshire Corgi into the Boxer genepool. Despite the massive difference in type, the F2 generation produced some dogs of typical Boxer appearance with a natural dock and further generations have established this very quickly, though with this mode of inheritance it will be unlikely that the normal tailed gene will be bred out completely.

This programme was undertaken with prior permission of the KC and the dogs were registered and eligible for showing but I'm not sure if they have been allowed or accepted into the lines of other Boxer breeders, or that other Boxer breeders have universally embraced the idea of Corgi blood in their breed.

Apart from the Pem Corgi there's the Vallhund, OES, Australian Shepherd and probably other breeds which also have this bobtail gene and it'll be interesting to see if breeders do select for this and we see a lot more natural docks appearing.

That's something I hadn't thought of and it raises the question, will judges be obliged to check for signs of illegal docking after the commencement date, or will it be recorded on registration? I do believe it is possible to tell the difference, as there is no scar tissue with a natural dock but it may not be as simple as that..... another loophole maybe?

My two pence.

I'm in favour for working gundogs, but I cant understand why Rotties, Dobes, Boxers or OES etc are docked ? Is it for cosmetic reasons ? If so then for that reason, they shouldnt be docked.

Thanks Pod that's interesting - I remember reading about Bruce Cattanach some years ago now

It's good news that the inheritance is easy to monitor and manipulate, natural docks would solve so much of the problem As you say, it will be interesting to see what breeders do ...

Wys
x

First I want to say that this thread has given me some serious food for thought, even though I haven't read it all yet. The most fervent arguments in favour of docking seem to come from the working gundog fraternity.

I can't help thinking that the risk factor is the work they're doing, more so than the presence of the tail. If it's so likely to damage your dog, why take them on shoots? I'm sure people and dogs have a lot of fun at it, but I don't think that's sufficient justification for thousands of pups being docked on the off-chance that they might participate. Aren't we civilised enough to put animal welfare before recreation? And before anyone jumps down my throat to say that it's essential to control population growth, consider this: necessity is the mother of invention! Perhaps we haven't yet found more sophisticated methods of population control because we haven't had to, it doesn't mean we can't. Humans don't have tails, but they do have big brains

Out of interest, what's the response from groups involved with other types of working dogs: assistance dogs, police dogs, search and rescue etc... ? How likely are pups bred for such purposes to be shown?