Dogsey

Musher ... You are a man (or woman?) after my own heart. I wish I had a fraction of your eloquence ... You manage to say everything I want to say but can't ... And then when I read your words, I know that that is exactly what I am trying ... Or want ... To say!

But chris ... I've told you over and over again ... Those so-called "kind" methods do not fit all - including my Ben.

I agree with Chris wholeheartedly on this, "There are always less than ethical ways to achieve goals,..."
Too bad we dont think like that when it comes to displacing or murdering "undiscovered Indian tribes" in the SouthAmerican jungle and destoying large tracts of Natural environment for the sake of "GOLD!!!" and other minerals and/or oil.
Chris. I do believe we've found an excellent application for the e-collar. We'll turn it up full blast and put it the neck of every single politician in the world and train them to do the ethical thing and stop destroying our planet and all its creatures fro the sake of $$$ innto the pockets of the PTB.
Thanks to your steadfastness regarding ecollar being unethical or lck of compassion I would never have figured out the ansr to all the globes problems.

What is ethical anyway?
Is it ethical to throw a human in a cage and keep him in a horrendous environment or is ethical to tie that man and woman together at the ankle s and wrists not to be removed for any reason for a set period of time till they "KNOW" they need each other.
OK.
Whose ethics.
Oh no. Your's is wrong, and this is how... mine's right and this is how.....
In my world, which may seem crude to many humans, I see more kind, respectful, loving, compassionate, high standards of "ethical" than the so called "civilized world" in regards to how all life is treated.
In my world, humans are not the "boss".
In the world I see on TV and www, humans treat our own species with horrible disrespect!
How you or anyone else expect us to treat a " lowly animal" any better.

It's easy to train an animal to do any number of "tricks" utilizing any number of methods. Just because the training method is "acceptable", "ethical", "compassionate" does it mean that the "trick" the animal learned is ethical, kind, aceptable or any host of other "human"e terms we may try to justify it with.
what if they don"t learn? what if there is no ore use for the learned behaviour that over the generations has become genetic propensity? what if just like us they're just plain darn stubborn?
All said I have a feeling that I'm just wasting my valuable energy in hoping for an open mind when pride says "There's only 2 ways. A wrong way and my way".
I feel I'm beating a dead horse.
SO....

Gnasher
On Sled Dog Central there is a news section. People can read adn then post their feedback/opinions/remarks.
A sad story regarding a young woman being struck by a vehicle that ran off the road into the ditch. it was driven by n older lady, 74? The team of dogs she was training were all found to be in good shape and relatively unscathed but her training cart(quad) was totalled as was her ribcage and legs and back and skull. She is out for the year so no Iditarod this year. When she woke up in the hospital her only concern was for the dogs since the driver of the vehicle was known to be OK. To make a long story a tad shorter, in the comments section there Margery Glickman, an older woman that lives in Florida in an area that up until recently was everglades with a Cockapoo looking "cutsiepie little baby doggie" type K9. this woman hates mushing with such a passion that she more or less says "Good for her, She should'nt be abusing them poor dogs by treating them so awful as to make them run pulling a sled."
This woman always posts a link to a site ?help save sled dogs? ost of which is mainly simple artistic editting and outright bovine excrement.

That older "everglades killing" lady hates mushers using mushing dogs to mush with.
There's no way in Heaven or Hell she'll change her mind but there is always something to be learned, even if it is merely to show us committment +'s and/or -"s.
Chris is like that older "everglades killing" lady.

Jeez Musher ... You don't half tax this poor old woman's brain early in the morning! So much to think on there mate - I do hope this poor lady makes a full recovery and so glad her team are all ok. How anyone can say mushing is cruel is beyond me ... For once words fail me, I cannot think of anything scathing enough to say!

I'm off to think now over a cup of tea!

Musher -"Chris. I do believe we've found an excellent application for the e-collar. We'll turn it up full blast and put it the neck of every single politician in the world"44"

Well, I do suppose everything could have a use

Musher, I'm not out to set the world to rights - I wish I could. I put forward my views on things where I may just have a tiny bit of influence. My views are often based on experience and knowledge.

Am I entrenched on the e-collar issue. Sure I am. I've seen the damage the damned things can do and know that there are other ways to train animals who, through not fault of their own, have to live with us. They can't choose where they live or how they are treated. We can

Yes chris our dogs cannot choose, but we can and i have chosen what i consider the best way to fix a beautiful animal who had been broken by ignorant human beings who did not understand him. For the first 3 years of his life he was confined to a running line in the garden ... on concrete, no shelter, 365 days a year. I think then his next home was the alcoholic woman, then the next one was good but the family rottie kept beating him up very badly so she rehomed him to a friend of our's who indulged him and let him get away with too much. We were his last hope ... and his salvation. Why? Because we never say never, we think outside the box, we are prepared to try something that is outside our comfort zone as a last resort. We have 15 years experience of living with wolf x's, not much but enough to know that these dogs are extremely clever and are only trainable if you can talk to them in their own language ... im not experienced enough to know if this is true, but i think that one size does not fit all with wolfies, even more so than dogs each one is totally unique and it is my opinion that you would not have the success we have achieved with ben with all wolfies. But we know ben and we read him right and we now have a brilliant amazing dog ... instead of a very dead one.

I am not one to judge as there is no way I'd ever take on a dangerous dog or one with known behavioral issues. I don't tolerate growling at me or play biting and it is shut down immediately.

I don't need to hear any nonsense about how you shouldn't stop a dog from growling etc. I DO stop it because I am not a dog, dogs run absolutely nothing here, have no obligations or responsibilities, sap my resources and space, enjoy my love and affection, and no dogs shall be warning me against anything in this house. Though I've been growled at several times, not once have I been bitten.

Any dog who bites and draws blood leaves this house forever as fast as I can get him to the pound and tell them he bit me or whoever so they know the dog has a bite history. What happens to him after that, the earth, wind, and fire only knows.

That being said, any champion of a person that would take a biting or otherwise vicious animal and turn it into a loving pet gets my respect and my support. I may sound brutal, but I love my dogs, respect them and their space, give them what they need, and due to my living situation, I do not and cannot play dangerous games with biting dogs.

Two old crippled people here cannot fight off a dog attack and my father cannot heal. No way would I keep a dog who bit to harm. People who do are either brave or stupid. People with small kids who keep biting dogs with no real plan of action, stupid. Gnasher is the brave, she knew what she was getting into, prepared accordingly, and succeeded. That deserves a hand clap imo, not admonishment.

Thank u myra, i appreciate that. Would i have taken ben on if i honestly thought he posed a danger to humans? Probably not ... but maybe yes because back then we didnt have a grandchild. Should we have kept the faith after he turned on oh? Absolutely, because it was fear based ... he thought oh was going to hit him because this is what had happened to him in the past when his collar was grabbed. It was understandable, maybe even justified. Most bites imo are fear-based. It is un-natural for any dog to be just plain vicious.

You have to be able to roll with the punches with any rescue dog, but with a dog like ben you really need to understand your dog and read the signs. It is a huge learning curve on which we are nowhere near the long climb to the top, but we are fast learners and more importantly so is my benbo. He is 1 in a million just like his father Hal.