|
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,367
|
24-07-2009, 11:54 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher 
As for never seeing a dog pin another one on its back, this is exactly what Hal did, and Tai does. My parents staffy did this, next door's GSD does this, and I am sure I can think of many other occasions I have seen this done by both bitches and males.
They have an 'open' well balance pack of 12. I've witnessed 'pinning'. Never ceases to amaze me how fluid the movement is. How deliberate the intention and how possible conflict can be diffused in an instant.
|
|
|
Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
|
24-07-2009, 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by lilypup
couldn't agree more.
gnasher: how come when you watch dog obedience you hardly ever see the handler touch their dog? infact probably never. the dogs are looking the whole time at their handler for the next command. that wasn't achieved by kicking, painful collars or alpha rolls. it takes time and patience to train a dog correctly. it takes minutes to dominate one.
The answer to your question Lily is on the label ! The clue is in the word "obedience".
When we see people like Mary Rae and others on telly, these dogs are highly trained, obedient to the letter. A look, a finger, a raised eyebrow, whatever, is sufficient.
You cannot compare "obedience" dogs with the frequently unsocialised, spoiled, pampered and totally disobedient dogs that we often see on the DW.
|
|
|
|
Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
|
24-07-2009, 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by Mahooli
Oh my word, you are saying that a bitch that places her mouth over the muzzle of a puppy is the same as a dog grabbing another one round it's throat, unbelievable. Yes these behaviours are naural but CM is not a dog nor in any way shape or form can he (or indeed any of us) behave like one!
As to the pinning then we will have to agree to disagree, you see it as a dog physically throwing and pinning another dog to the ground and I see it as one dog offering an appeasement gesture to another to ward off actual physical contact that could be potentially life threatening. From my point of view you cannot see what is actually going on and making assumptions based on a misplaced belief in dog behaviour as all being dominant and violent when the truth of the matter is the reverse.
Becky
What I said was that a bitch placing her muzzle over that of her pups is a form of pinning. I did not say ANYTHING about a dog grabbing another by the throat. Tai, as an example, does NOT grab a dog who is attacking him by the throat. He forces it to the ground, on its back, usually by rearing up on his backlegs at the same time as the other dog, and then either by dominance or force, it is hard to know which as it happens very quickly, the attacker quickly becomes the attacked, and ends up on his back, legs in the air with Tai standing over him, muzzle around the other dog's throat, snarling at him. The dog submits, and they part the best of friends.
Never ever have I said Tai or any other dog for that matter grabbed another by the throat. You really do exaggerate Becky !!
|
|
|
|
Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
|
24-07-2009, 12:12 PM
Originally Posted by SibeVibe
I drive my mates crazy by agreeing to visit and then spend all my time in the dog run with their dogs
They have an 'open' well balance pack of 12. I've witnessed 'pinning'. Never ceases to amaze me how fluid the movement is. How deliberate the intention and how possible conflict can be diffused in an instant.
But I think you and I are blind, don't you know! We misinterpret all this natural dog behaviour
The way Tai "pins" an aggressive dog is amazing to watch, and when I first saw it I honestly thought poor Woody was going to have his throat removed! The noise was unbelievable, you could smell the testosterone in the air, the violence of it was terrifying ... and yet there was no violence, neither dog had any mark on him whatsoever except for a bit of saliva. Woody learned his place, peace reigned supreme until his owner came to collect him.
I just wish I could video these confrontations and slow them right down so you could see each detail, it all happens far too quickly for the human eye to catch the subtle nuances.
Thanks for your support ... it gets very lonely on these CM rants sometimes ! I swore I was never going to get involved in one again, but here I am again
|
|
|
|
Location: london, UK
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 583
|
24-07-2009, 12:14 PM
Can't wait to see him kick and strangle 'em.
An American dog trainer recently noted that CM seems to get bitten a lot more than other trainers...
|
|
|
Location: West Sussex, UK
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,983
|
24-07-2009, 12:18 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
The answer to your question Lily is on the label ! The clue is in the word "obedience".
When we see people like Mary Rae and others on telly, these dogs are highly trained, obedient to the letter. A look, a finger, a raised eyebrow, whatever, is sufficient.
You cannot compare "obedience" dogs with the frequently unsocialised, spoiled, pampered and totally disobedient dogs that we often see on the DW.
it's common knowledge that some of the best trained obedience dogs were once the dogs you described on dw. my point was that they reached their highly trained state without the methods applied by cm.
|
|
|
Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
|
24-07-2009, 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
Very well said ! It is indeed like poetry in motion.
But I think you and I are blind, don't you know! We misinterpret all this natural dog behaviour
The way Tai "pins" an aggressive dog is amazing to watch, and when I first saw it I honestly thought poor Woody was going to have his throat removed! The noise was unbelievable, you could smell the testosterone in the air, the violence of it was terrifying ... and yet there was no violence, neither dog had any mark on him whatsoever except for a bit of saliva. Woody learned his place, peace reigned supreme until his owner came to collect him.
I just wish I could video these confrontations and slow them right down so you could see each detail, it all happens far too quickly for the human eye to catch the subtle nuances.
You can`t have much idea of training if you use him as an enforcer. In my house I set the rules, not my dog,
|
|
|
|
Location: West Sussex, UK
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,983
|
24-07-2009, 12:20 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy
Does the owner of this dog know that your dog is allowed to intimidate and bully him - and that you allow your dog to physically attack his dog?
You can`t have much idea of training if you use him as an enforcer. In my house I set the rules, not my dog,
|
|
|
|
Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
|
24-07-2009, 12:22 PM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK
Really ? Have you actually seen this happen ?
I've never seen any of my bitches sharply nip their puppies to get their attention or in any other situation.
I've also watched a lot of footage of real wild wolves living in real packs & not those put together by man, never seen a bitch nip or pin a puppy for attention,. I have seen bitches put a paw on a puppy when she has been getting too much attention from a puppy.
Perhaps if we were as closely related to dogs the way a bitch is to it's puppies we wouldn't need to work on getting attention from our dogs.
There is no way a human can actively mimic the body language of dogs. What you describe as an attention getting action between a bitch(the bitch doing the behaviour) & it's puppies isn't.
To a puppy it's mother means food & attention(from the bitch grooming etc etc)& to bond with a dog we need to mean the same.
A human being would be hard pressed to learn to mimic all the thousands of subtle nuances of dog behaviour. However, we can try to do just that. Have you ever heard of the Horse Whisperer? Monty Roberts has learned to speak "horse" ... which is even harder than learning to speak "dog" because horses are a herbivorous flight animal, whereas we are similar to the dog in that we live by similar pack rules and are a hunter species. If you are at all horsey, you will doubtlessly revere Monty Roberts as I do. He has learned at least the basics of horse language, I see no reason why Cesar should not be able to do the same and any other human being who chooses to.
Your last paragraph I am bewildered by to say the least! A bitch mother, any mother for that matter, is SO much more than succour, love and attention!! I sincerely hope if you have children that you don't just lavish love and attention on them, but with absolutely no rules, no discipline !! ?
|
|