I hope they would never use it as it's dangerous!
I think to be fair his book is a bit different to his programme , which does show extreme stuff...I've not read his second book which I understand he has out, only Cesar's Way.
Has he said this anywhere? It would be good if he has said this in a book or something.
But even so, him doing it on tv is a bit like Delia doing cooking and expecting people to not follow the recipe
Don't see why this would be locked though as we are so far being calm and rational?

Yes we are being extremely civilised but there are so few contributors, someone even posted that the thread was not about CM's methods. I just think that sometimes some of the habitual Alpha Roll arguements put people off taking part.

Yes, I got confused a bit
I've also replied a bit on the other thread.

Basing our behaviour towards our dogs on the older studies tends to cause misunderstandings and problems. For example owners believing their dogs are trying to be dominant or alpha if they pull on the lead or are "naughty". It didn't help us to understand them as a species, with regards to pet ownership and living with them day to day in my view

Can you give an example?
Then again we have the wolf pack vs. dog pack or as some believe now family group..learning anything from wolf packs may not be the way to go to help us understand more about how to live with our pet dogs.

Agreed!
( I wouldn't use the term "dominance" but ...)

I think we would not have had the books like Monks of New Skete advocating alpha rolls, we'd not have had a lot of the more physical ways of training dogs. Probably not so much of any of the prominent books or tv trainers who advocate dominance methods. Perhaps even police dog Acer would not have died from being kicked after he growled at his owner, who knows? I'd have to check this more with time lines etc but at the moment that's my view.A lot of the military training was about dominating the dog but not sure what the philosophy was, again I need to look into that more. There's many things to consider really.

Yes I already have that in my favourites
Oh yes!
but once something is a meme it's hard to get rid of in culture as you know. I don't think, overall, that the "dominance" meme has done our relationships with dogs any favours. It was leapt on as being an "answer" really.
There's nothing to really replace it (nothing with the right "title") and I also think people do like the very idea of being alpha. It is appealing in that sense.
I certainly set boundaries but would never call myself alpha Can I ask why you use that term or feel it's the best term in relation to your boundary making? Maybe it is just semantics but I'm not sure?
John Fisher, who at first advocated pack theory (not the rough stuff, just the eating first etc) did a big U turn on it. Some do still go along with it but plenty don't now (includes those who used to but have changed their minds - which really is also myself, as i used to think in terms of alpha etc after being influenced by John Fisher).

Were the wolves originally wild and blood related though? It doesn't say or at least I can't see it.
Various wolves have been taken to Indian reservations and formed packs but were originally surprisingly, captive and brought from various places. The Nat. Geo. film "Wolf at my Door" if my memory serves me illustrates this.

I saw him on tv last year and this happened in the Devon pack - are you sure he was referring to the States pack when he spoke of this? It was actually shown on tv that the Devon pack didn't accept him back after he'd been away tohelp with, I believe, a livestock problem.
That's not too different to what I might do - but it's training manners rather than any pack thing (probably have to agree to disagree here though )
But it's an important point. Dogs do behave better with knowing where they are at - the don't do well with no boundaries etc but then that is good dog training, not pack leadership, dominance or alpha ...

It's also another misconception that CM tells you to eat first, what he actually says is when you're eating the dog must leave you in peace no begging etc. I don't remember him ever saying you have to eat before the dog. Me and the dogs don't eat at the same time of day anyway. What he does say is the dog must be calm at feeding time, no jumping up to get the food, no barking etc. just calmly waiting. The calmest dog always gets fed first, then the next calmest etc.

Wysiwyg: from memory, Shaun was telling us about his experiences with a wild wolf pack in the States, not his Devon pack. I will check with my friend who was also there and see if she remembers differently.

You are so right about training manners. That is really the only problem with Tai ... he has good recall, his sit is good -when he feels like it (a typical utonagan thing ... don't ask !). He had and has respect for his new human pack, but just no basic good manners (a bit like a child being polite to his parents, following the house rules etc. etc., but not saying thank you when given a drink). That was the first and last time that he will ever snatch food, or attempt to snatch food, from any human hand. I was outraged because I was so used to being able to trust Hal totally with food.

Tai is very intelligent and a very quick learner, and unlike his predecessor he really WANTS to please you. Hal didn't want to please you at all, but he did have basic good manners and respect and knew his place and would never abuse it.

My dogs have always been present at mealtimes, but like yourself, they are not allowed to pester, beg or touch. They have to lie down or sit calmly, or be sent away.

I never did this with any other dog apart from Hal, but with him because he was not food orientated at all, I would on occasion give him a titbit at table, for which he had to "trust" and not touch until he was told. You could leave the room, and he would not touch that food until you told him.

I don't think I would ever be able to achieve this with Tai, who is TOTALLY food orientated !

Because im anti CM!!!!

I will do a post after tea for you !

I know you are mishflynn, but that doesn't mean to say I close my eyes and my ears to other advice!! Patch has given me some very good advice about purchasing a really long long line to train Tai not to dash off to say hello to other dogs. I haven't as yet ordered this, because I am trying to stop him by command alone, but it is the next option if I fail.

Any advice is always gratefully received !

gnasher glad Tai is settling in so well, sounds like you were meant to be.

About the long line recall, can I give an opinion I hope you don't mind
If you start with the longline, and then phase it out, to using just your voice, you can't fail, if you understand what I am saying. Tai has to come back to you at some point,you have the end of the longline, he learns that he has to come bcak. Whereas, if he is already off lead, he can p!%% off, and come back when in his own time as he can call the shots . I think works for all dogs really, regardless of breeds.That is the way I have taught recall. I used this method to stop my two going straight up to people too, they have to come back wait for my "Go see" and then they can go and say Hi,if it is okay.

Hi Moonstone, I like the sound of that. Tai is so good though, he really doesn't piss off, he just HAS to go and say hello to other dogs. This is fine, I am glad he is so well socialised, but I would prefer him to go say hello on MY terms, not his, in other words in a controlled fashion IF and WHEN I say he can.

It will take time for the long line to arrive after I have ordered it, if I do, things are so difficult at the moment with Woody here. Poor Tai had only been with us 1 day, when we had to have Woody to stay. Unfortunately, it was a promise we had made ages ago, and there was no way we could or would back out. We had to collect Tai last weekend because his owner was moving down south. There has been a lot of territory marking going on ... I cannot catch the phantom piddler who does the first wee, but I have a suspicion it is Woody, and then of course Tai wees on top. if I could only catch the initiator, it would be rolled up newspaper time (very un-Cesar I know, but whoever said I was perfect!!).

We are just about to take them up to the woods for a good walk, and then off to the pub. We took them up to our local last night, and they had a wonderful time. Everybody was exclaiming at how similar Tai is to Hal, poor old Woody's nose was a bit out of joint I think, so he was sulking a lot. There can be no sight funnier than a sulking ute ... Hal did it to a T, it was hysterical!