Whirriers don`t work as a pack, did`nt you know that ?
You have heard of Whirriers have`nt you ? Silly me, of course you must have, you being so knowledgeable of dogs compared to the rest of us mortals, `dearie`

Every dog is unique, but add them to a pack of the same/similar breed, outside a family home and they will form a group mentality. Surely you'd agree? You seem knowledgable, though remarkably defensive.

Why is my attitude rude or (at most)confrontational? Purely because others choose to declare their stance the only one acceptable? Dearie or sweetie is a term I'd use to both my friends and my dogs. The quotation marks used later were in response to some rather unfair chauvinist claims.

You claim people who can train dogs without a tap are a subject of my mirth; totally unfounded. I have a great deal of respect for people who train animals. I am also an admirer of people who can understand what training each dog requires. We have spaniels and deerhounds which are so desperate to obey it is uncanny; unfortunately the same can not be said of our pack terriers. Despite all the training in the world, when the blood runs ( say a fox passes the kennels) they will not listen. These will however, respond to a sharp tap. Arrogance? I'm not the one claiming I've found the One True Way- I simply do my best.

All this I have stated before, and I have vigorously defended my point of view, as others have done on the opposite side. Quite why this warrants the accusations levelled is beyond me.

Rather my point chipmunk.

But they are rather pretty.

My dad used to tap Takara on the nose a lot as a pup and I hated it. This was premeditated as he thought it was the way to train her. I then had people saying 'oh you can tell she's been abused' when they put their hands near her to stroke her!

I'm VERY against smacking dogs, I don't think it does anything at all for your bond or relationship and doesn't teach the dog anything either, however, I will admit that I have hit - not because I thought it would work, but when I've lost my temper.

I absolutely hate myself for it and the very few times I've done it I've gone away and cried and then gone straight back to the dog to try bonding exercises again!

There's no excuse - it wasn't hard, but that doesn't matter, I still hit her. I had been poorly and depressed but again, it should never have happened and I wouldn't judge anyone who has had a trying dog, a hard time of it and has hit the dog without thinking - I know how horrid it is when you realise you've done it and I haven't done it for a long, long time. I've spent time sorting myself out and have been to the doctor for help because I was 'lashing out at my dog'.

Thankfully Takara now trusts me and I can do anything with her and she never flinches - I've never thought it was right, but I have done it - as ashamed as I am to say it.

Please explain why that is not the case with my BCs ? [ four of them ] ? They are each very different from each other even though of the same breed and as it happens no they don`t do pack mentality whether at home or not The nearest they get to it, [ and the only `group` thing that they do ], is when one barks they all bark, however four of my six dogs being deaf, they only get the vibration of it, they can`t hear that another dog is barking so its nothing to do with pack but each reacting to the same physical stimulus of the vibration they each feel at the time.

More than some, not as much as the rest.

My defensiveness is on behalf of the people you seem to find need to be derogatory toward, perhaps you don`t realise that`s how you come across so I`m pointing it out. You come across as rude, sarcastic, patronising, and as though you think you are above everyone else.

See above

Its about how you are toward people. Have a different viewpoint by all means, everyone has that right, but you don`t have the right to be rude and patronising to people in the way you speak, [ type ], at them.

Then kindly reserve it for them, as the way you use it here comes across as patronising.

Unfair in your opinion perhaps however there are other opinions allowed than just yours. Perhaps you could just apologise to those who were offended ?

I did`nt think they were a subject of mirth to you, I got the impressions you were more a case of jealous of them.

Please tell me any dog which would like to be hit or zapped ?
None ?
Didn`t think so, therefore they are not what a dog requires, what they do require is understanding and for humans to stop thinking its a dogs fault for not understanding what we convey. If a dog does`nt `get it`, that`s down to us miscommunicating to them, that`s our failing, not the dogs, therefore the dog should not be subjected to pain or fear because of us getting something wrong.



You work them, so its what they do, then when they react at a time you don`t require them to go off chasing or killing, you punish them with violence for doing what they are otherwise supposed to do. Nice....not !

Yes

Why is it that people who can`t understand how to train without violence are fixated on believing that those of us who manage without it are `one true way`ers` ?
There are many different ways to train without violence or intimidation, but presumably as you don`t know how to not use violence you don`t realise its not `one method` involved in positive training.

If your best is thinking hitting is acceptable then that does`nt really say much about your `best` I`m afraid

Its how you write it, the way you word things, the patronising attitude, the arrogance, and that is borne up by the fact that you can`t see its what you do.
Hopefully this will cause you to read back through your posts and think about what you could have put differently, to drop the `dearie` type stuff, at least in the way you have used it thus far, and to apologise to those who have been on the receiving end of you being, [ or coming across as ], patronising toward them.

If you were given a slap or a zap for each time you have been rude, how many would you have taken to either learn and understand completely what you were doing wrong or to react with a punch ?
Now think about it from a dogs point of view - imagine you are the dog and you can`t understand what you`ve done `wrong` then you get a clip round the head or a zap for it without even knowing what `it` is.....

Thank you for the link but its not needed as I have a dog that doesn't worry sheep.

My dog only wanted to chase sheep I live on the moor so walk everyday . I would neeed to drive to take them somewhere different.
I don't hit my dog or lose my temper with it. It is trained in the basice comands like heal wait sit down sat Ect.All I trained with reward based training. I have never smaked my children its not the way I am.
I did use the collar as a quick fix yes after trying for almost a year to stop him. He was totaly fixated on them.he would lunge and bark at them so not a easy walk with a 45 kg dog tugging on your arm.
anyway off to bed now night night

Yes...I know that, but there are people who read these threads and rather than them not seeing an alternative to the option you have offered I thought I would show how simple it is to find a kind alternative. At the end of the day you spent your money on something that you knew would hurt your dog. The link I offered was a method of ensuring that you have a dog that doesn't chase sheep anymore...because it genuinely doesn't want to rather than it being frightened and hurt.
I had a dog that was bigger than that that had such a high drive to herd, it wanted to keep anyone and everyone with us, including old ladies with shopping trolleys. When on lead he would lunge at people who stood next to us at traffic lights/shop doors etc and being largely GSD he would let everyone know what he was thinking.

Now, I could have popped a shock collar on him and zapped him everytime he so much as looked at someone, but then I would have had a scared dog, which would have been awful. Instead I popped a gentle leader on him and worked vERY hard with him. Within a week there was a massive difference, within a month he was a totally different dog.

Just like you, I had to walk my dog in areas heavily populated by people and I did not have an 'out' an easy option. My dog wanted to herd people and he was big and loud (and soft and daft as a brush but they didn't know that). I had to get him to stop doing it through kind and gentle methods...and I did. I had to do this training with people literally stopping and staring at him in the street, believe me it was massively embarrassing, he really knew how to alert people to the fact that he wanted to herd them, he was big and LOUD and would lunge at anyone be they toddler or old person, I had to do the training everytime I took him out of the front door and that included when my then 6 year old son was with me, who the dog was the worst with. Trying to explain to my son why he couldn't do things as well as stop the dog lunging etc was hard work to say the least, but it paid off in the end and ultimately the dog did the school run with me with no problems at all. It was hard but it paid off and it was all done through kind methods. NOT treats as this particular dog, just to make matters more difficult, didn't respond to food rewards at all...not at all.

My point??Given all of the above, I fail to see why people can't do that with a few sheep in an otherwise empty field. It takes time and effort but it is completely achievable. My dog now is amazing.

Yes you chose an easy option,but let's please not forget that it is a painful option. I would be genuinely interested to know what training methods you had attempted in the year preceding the use of a shock collar.


I am not having a go at you in particular, but shock collars in general. I will challenge anyone that comes and says their dog is fine now thanks to an ecollar and say they had no alternative...

Couldn't agree more. As said before give me a dog that can speak and say's 'put a shock collar on me' and I'd do it, but never, ever to a dumb animal.

I didn't raise a finger to him either....but he got a LOT of tickles and praise.