It is on the net Gnasher, easily seen. When people ask for foster homes for dogs and post it on public sites, people are bound to see it.

Indeed, but not on this forum Patch. So why ... when on THIS forum I had been very careful not to mention names in order to protect the devastated ex owner of Tai ... do you go and mention his name? It seems very strange to me.

And no, I am not ignoring your advice ! But, somehow, you picked up the wrong end of the stick! We are Tai's forever home, however, had we not have been, your advice about him picking up on us holding back because we were fostering him would be extremely relevant. Indeed, it could still be correct. I loved Hal so much, and had such a close bond with him, I do feel guilty that we have bonded so quickly with Tai, and he with us. I feel disloyal, although I know this is ridiculous. So maybe he is picking up on this negative emotion.

Thanks too for the advice about the varying line lengths, ours is 30 feet, I didn't know you could get them longer than that. I will look into having one made if I need to.

I am absolutely not throwing your years of experience with rescues back in your face. My ears and mind are open to advice, I am doubtless going to need it. I have had several rescues in the past, but it is a long time ago, Lizzie, the german shorthaired pointer, having died back in 1987. I have forgotten much that I learned through experience

To get back on topic though, I think it absolutely extraordinary that Tai has settled in so quickly with us, and I give Cesar's Way full credit for this. We started as we mean to go on, and the dog is responding beautifully. His manners improve every day, and we are now at the stage where he sits without being told for his dinner bowl and waits for my instruction that he may eat. No more trying to snatch chicken wings out of my hand, and although we still have some way to go on the barging, I think this is because we have Woody, Hal's son, staying at the moment, and we have some Serious Male Issues going down at the moment regarding Hal, whose smell must still be lingering. Considering they are both entire males, I think (again thanks to CM) they are getting on extremely well indeed.

Thanks Borderdawn for that. I am being a little sensitive I know, but I took such pains to protect the owner's identity because he loves his dog to bits by not mentioning the dog's name! But never mind, it's done now.

You have posted his picture on Dogsey, [ wel a link to his pic ], and gave his name

It sounds the most likely to me, going by experience.

No I did`nt mean it that way, it was a very general explanation of various scenario`s of common occurrences, nothing more.

Yes, a higher pitch is usually good for getting attention, if only because the sound travels better, but its what to do to utilise the attention once the dog takes notice thats key. He needs to learn what you are asking of him which will take one to one training, just you and him.
Again, that`s where a long line is so useful for recall because you can use it, [ gently, and attached to harness, never collar ], to help him understand what you are asking of him.

A different pitched voice to what he is used to responding to can be enough to make a `trained cue` sound unrecognisable until he has really learned it thoroughly, or you can use a different cue altogether to hat your OH uses, ie if he uses `come`, you could use `here`.
That way he won`t inadvertently learn that when you say whatever cue your OH says, it must mean to go to your OH regardless of who said the cue.

I know Patch, but it's a link as you quite rightly say, which is not the same thing; its not the same as doing it here on THIS thread where there has been much controversy (as usual !) over CM etc. etc. Never mind, it's done now, I'll forget about it.

Thanks for the advice too ... trust me, Tai will be well aware that I want him to come back to ME !! I smacked Mike in the face by mistake in my enthusiasm ... windmills have nothing on me !! Mike can't whistle, so I think my USP as it were can be just that ... my whistle. I only ever whistle when I want Tai to recall, which he does immediately. He is very good like that. It is just that if Mike is with me, he comes back to Mike's side instead of mine. When I am on my own, he comes straight back to me, perfect recall. Ooo I get a little frisson of excitement when I type that, because recall was not Hal's bag! TBH, I don't actually care whether he comes to me or to Mike, as long as he comes back, it's just that it piques me a bit when its ME whose recalled him, but Mike's side's where he ends up!

Alternatively, I could castrate Mike (very tempting, he's been a complete a*****e today), then he'll have a high pitched voice, and that will completely confuse Tai into coming to me because my voice will probably be deeper than Mike's !

Whichever method, I'll let you know how I get on tomorrow! Thanks very much for the advice Patch.

I had mine made here :

http://www.ropemakers.co.uk/

I stumbled on them when out for a drive when I live up that way. I was able to specify the length, weight, and colour and to watch my long lines being made there and then, [ three different lengths which can be used singly or together ].
I`ve been using the same lines for over ten years now and they quality has held up brilliantly no matter how wet or muddy they have been in all that time so I can happily recommend the company who made mine.

Oh cool, thanks for that. I will click on the link now and add it to my favourites. I wonder if they come in pink ... my favourite colour! Not very appropriate for a butch chap like Tai, but he is so gorgeous he will be able to handle any teasing from the other dogs !

It's bed for me now ... thanks again for the advice.

For me, it's actions as much as words - for instance if someone pins a dog to make it submit to them, whatever they call it, what they do is based on the common view of alpha leader/dominance.

Ok well if you've read the whole of the thread you will know that although I am pro CM I have spent the whole thread trying to explain to other pro CM'ers who actually don't seem very visible on this thread that if they live a lifetime with dogs they will probably never use the Alpha Roll. It's much argued about whenever CM is mentioned but isn't something he advocates Joe Public should ever use. Yet another misconception on both sides.
All CM threads seem to follow a set pattern and end up locked which I think serves no purpose because only one or two emotive subjects are raised, everyone sticks to their own view and no one ever walks away informed.

I do think many have similar goals but as to how they get there - well, there is a very broad spectrum of methods. Some are based around reward based training, using little positive punishment but lots of rewards and some consequences and lots of feedback for good behaviour. Some is based on being pretty hard on the dog (for instance, going back to the military style training with check chains etc and beatings).

- I and many others really don't see it like that at all. The dogs often do physically try to fight (often through fear) but are taken to the limit by CM. I'm talking about the programmes here as they are very influential...

If dogs are learning, in operant mode, they can't be in learned helplessness also...as they are not shut down.

http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm

under "I have never seen him hurt a dog"

Those who manufacture and sell them would love us to believe it. They work on the principle of positive punishment and negative reinforcement so the dog is working to avoid an aversive which is at best unpleasant, at worst very painful. What dogs experience depends on their traines using the ecollar. Even if the levels are low, they have to cause the dog to work to avoid the feeling - why would a dog or any creature do that if the feeling was just a distraction? Something else such as a word, or noise or owner touch would apparently do the same, and it does not.
At low levels the dog knows the levels can go up.
Scientifically, they are punishment. Positive punishment (ie adds something the animal will work to avoid to suppress a behaviour. So something the dog does not like at all. Negative reinforcement also, which is the removal of something the animal will work to avoid to strengthen a behaviour. There is a theory the sheer relief of avoiding the "discomfort" orr pain acts in a reinforcing manner. Basically the dog is working to avoid the pain or "discomfort"
Some admit this, and understand it, whilst others who push ecollars pretend it's a tickle.
They have not ruled anything yet - Scottish, Welsh and Defra have either held consults or initiated studies. Experts also disagree as usual... It is all very much ongoing and nothing is decided. Defra studies may not be concluded until 2010.