I am relieved to note I am not a lost lone voice after all

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php...95#post2053995

Fair do's, if it works for you, that's great. I just quiver and tremble to think of massive great hairy louts like Ben and Tai running around uncontrolled, causing havoc. Firstly, there would be no sheep left in the area, secondly they would doubtless cause numerous road accidents, thirdly there would be a lot of very angry and traumatised dog owners in our village!!

As for the chihuahua, don't even go there!! Without control, he would be a nasty, yappy, snappy little B*****d. As it is he is a thoroughly nice little man, not very obedient, wilful with a tendency to be growly, but he's basically a good dog and much loved by his larger companions.

Funny how I don't control my dog, nor do I think I'm some sort of "alpha" to her and yet she's extremely well-behaved, has her Canine Good Citizen certificate and is always complimented for her behavior in public.

Our relationship is built on mutual respect, rather than control. And because of it, she looks to me to guide and protect her. I never thought my parents controlled me. Sure they guided me, taught me, kept me safe, but they didn't control me. Controlling someone is a very different thing from teaching them allowing them to make their own decisions and letting them know then they've done something you deem unacceptable.

In my personal opinion, if you don't have a well-behaved dog unless you have to control and dominate them, then you're doing something wrong. And that's my opinion. So I'm allowed to have that too.

Gnasher - again, just becuase people dont believe your method of training dosent mean it is the only option and the rest of us have out of control dogs with no rules and no boundries
I dont use dominance in any of my training. My dogs eat first, sleep on the bed, lie on the sofa, walk infront of me
But I have trained them to follow the rules I choose for them, and they have trained me in some of their rules like when belly rubs are needed

Blimey! I'd better send my two over to you then. One of my dogs is extremely well-behaved, the other less so but will improve with time. But only because I have trained them. When Tai first came to us, he had no manners, and when Ben came, he was just plain ill-mannered, disobedient, aggressive and spoiled. You are extremely lucky having a dog who is naturally well-behaved!

[QUOTE=Ben Mcfuzzylugs;2054715]Gnasher - again, just becuase people dont believe your method of training dosent mean it is the only option and the rest of us have out of control dogs with no rules and no boundries
I dont use dominance in any of my training. My dogs eat first, sleep on the bed, lie on the sofa, walk infront of me
But I have trained them to follow the rules I choose for them, and they have trained me in some of their rules like when belly rubs are needed[/QUOT


Indeed not - there are many ways to skin a cat. I just choose to use the method that works with my dogs. i can't do any more or any less. If and when the day dawns that it no longer works, then I will change my methods. I do not dominate my dogs, but i do control them, and to do otherwise would be plain irresponsible. They each weigh over 40 kilos, and would wreak havoc if less to their own devices!

But we are all different, and one thing I do know, if we try and use training methods that we don't believe in, they will not work, our dogs will know we are play-acting!

Naturally well-behaved? No more so than any person or any dog is. She was never out of control, but she had to learn how to live in my world just as any other dog would.

I taught her how I wanted to her to act. I didn't dominate her or force her to do anything. I let her make a choice and if it was the wrong one, she got no reward or was ignored. If she made the right choice, it was party time. She learned what got the reward and what didn't pretty quickly. No controlling. Just letting her make choices that got her something awesome or didn't.

Dog training really isn't THAT hard and it should never be a power struggle. The less of that adversarial relationship one has with their dog, the better the chance their dog will behave well. The people I see using control and dominance to "train" their dogs seem to be doing the same thing year in and year out and their dogs rarely show much improvement.

Gnasher ~ It sounds like your dogs are happy & well-adjusted & you're clearly an experienced dog owner, coping with dogs that others would probably struggle with. And it sounds like your methods/philosophy work for you & your dogs. You also sound like an educated & literate person.

What I don't understand though, is given your intelligence & literacy, you seem to be sticking to outdated & flawed pseudoscience & a philosophy about dog behaviour that has been discredited by scientists that have far more experience than most of the people here!

To say that you "don't care whether they [the scientists] are right or wrong", surely does a huge disservice to the domestic dog world. Isn't it the reponsibility of all of us that purport to love dogs & want to do the best for them, to keep up to date with the latest scientific thinking & to read the research, even if it's 2nd hand or pointed out to us on forums such as this? Just to dismiss it & stick to theories that you know have been shown to be flawed, doesn't do justice to your obviously caring attitude to your dogs.

No doubt how you treat your dogs works for you & I have absolutely no reason to believe that your dogs are anything other than loved & well-cared for. But I can't help but think that the reasons that your methods work for you are different from the reasons you attribute.

However, as you say, it is your right.... I just think that it's a shame.

I think you are just fencing with words m'dear. You ARE controlling your dog - by rewarding her "good" behaviour, and not rewarding the undesirable. It is a different way of doing things from my way, and certainly would not work with wolf crosses, but nonetheless clearly it works for you and that's all that counts. But if you think you are not controlling your dog, then you are very mistaken!

I do not train my dogs with dominance, but I do control them, and to control them I have trained them to be obedient because they WANT to be so, they WANT to please me, not because they are getting a titbit or a reward. They look to me and my husband as their leaders, their mummy and daddy if you like, and to be able to get them to do this, we have to behave like a mummy and daddy. given a choice, Tai would spend all day chasing sheep, along with his trusty supporter, Ben. This is not good, so we have to keep them under control around sheep, we cannot allow them to take on that responsibility for themselves, the local farmers round us would go potty, quite rightly, and they would end up getting shot.

By acting as alpha male and alpha female, remaining calm but assertive, NEVER physically violent, always being consistent and always praising when they have done well, leading by example, we have achieved in a very short space of time harmony in the household, with 2 entire males and 1 castrated. Each knows his place, where he fits in, and all is well with the world.

Its just a "rule" here Gnasher, nothing dropped on the floor would be touched either. When my mother was here, she has Rhumatoid Arthritis, she sometimes she dropped her tablets, so "leave" was absolutely paramount, its the same principal with food really.