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Location: uk
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 18,552
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08-02-2011, 08:13 PM
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/down...derterrier.pdf
There is one for each breed.
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Location: Herefordshire, UK
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 9,634
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08-02-2011, 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by Ripsnorterthe2nd 
I'm sorry but do you honestly believe just because you haven't experienced/seen something it doesn't exist?
Working type breeders linebreed/inbreed in exactly the same way show breeders do as they're trying to consolidate specific traits. It's often this breeding that produces genetic health problems. The majority of working breeders (ime) don't health test which means they're a hell of a lot more likely to produce a dog with a genetic health problems. So please explain how they're bred from "healthy" lines? Or are you another person who seems to think because the dog can work it must be healthy?
Being bred from "sturdy" lines means diddly squat I'm afraid unless the health tests provided are utilised!
I merely am working on the law of averages.
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Location: Scotland
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,298
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08-02-2011, 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by Ripsnorterthe2nd
As I've said before, my posts relate to gundogs. I cannot comment on sheepdogs as I have no idea about them, other than they seem to like to bite me!
A well bred show Springer (by that I mean one with the working instinct intact, which is the only way a Springer should be imo) can quite easily do the job it was bred for, Isla's breeder sold one of her dogs to their gamekeeper to help him with his livelihood. He said he felt the dog was better suited as the working type Springers tended to go mad and flush every single bird in the vicinity which is not what small, wild shoots want. The small, short working Springer is often bred to compete in field trials to be fast and flashy looking to the judge (ring any bells????) - not what the breed was originally bred for. Working Springers look the way they do not because they do the job better, but because the breeders couldn't give a rats ar$e about how the dogs look. Which for a person passionate with the breed is simply just not good enough.
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Location: Co. Durham, UK
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,213
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08-02-2011, 09:34 PM
Originally Posted by Bitkin
No, I am not saying that just because I haven't seen it, it doesn't exist. I did say that my experience was limited, but within those limitations I saw quite a few nasty problems with supposedly well bred show dogs, and I never saw one problem with a working dog.
I merely am working on the law of averages.
Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.
Originally Posted by Moobli
Fair enough - I don't know a huge amount about springers and am basing my comments on border collies
In the case of the BC I agree, the dog has stayed the same because the job has stayed the same. However with the Springer I do tend to feel that as people are breeding for competition and large driven shoots, the dogs have changed. I've no problem with that, the only problem I have is people trying to say that the current working Springer is the correct type. It may well be for FT, but historically and for the original job it was created for it isn't. It also wouldn't be difficult to retain correct looks to a point in a FT Springer, it's just most of the serious competitors simply don't care what the dog looks like, in the same respect that serious show folk don't care about working instinct.
Shame really, more so for the breed than anything else.
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Location: UK
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,065
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08-02-2011, 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by Ripsnorterthe2nd
Of course everyone has an opinion, some people will have good experiences of working show Springers, some bad. Being against the show type showing it's only natural you want to publish anything which might infer them to be bad workers.
Nope - she is the only person I actually know who breeds and shows this type of spaniel and the lady I worked for is someone who has done a lot of coursing/shooting etc (mainly with her Manchesters, but she had lurchers as well)
Shipden exists in Norfolk and has mixed the working strain into the show strain and work their dogs. However as his wife died recently he's had to downsize and I'm not sure how active he is now. He's not seen at shows these days.
That sounds about right...I think she mentioned something about the fact that they were not doing anything now. The ladies first dog came from them - she was not really good enough for the show ring.
The English Springer was recognised by the KC in 1902.
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Location: Herefordshire, UK
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 9,634
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08-02-2011, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by Ripsnorterthe2nd
So what you're saying is, because you haven't seen an unhealthy, poorly bred working type you just assume they must be healthier? Even though, more often than not, they're inbred and not health tested???
Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.
Stands to reason!
In the case of the BC I agree, the dog has stayed the same because the job has stayed the same. However with the Springer I do tend to feel that as people are breeding for competition and large driven shoots, the dogs have changed. I've no problem with that, the only problem I have is people trying to say that the current working Springer is the correct type. It may well be for FT, but historically and for the original job it was created for it isn't. It also wouldn't be difficult to retain correct looks to a point in a FT Springer, it's just most of the serious competitors simply don't care what the dog looks like, in the same respect that serious show folk don't care about working instinct.
Shame really, more so for the breed than anything else.
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Location: UK
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,065
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08-02-2011, 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by Tupacs2legs
i wouldnt of thought pugs.. none of the ones ive ever known have
.. but yorkies..they look wrecked..but go on fooorrreeever.
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Location: Co. Durham, UK
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,213
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09-02-2011, 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by Tassle
Nope - she is the only person I actually know who breeds and shows this type of spaniel and the lady I worked for is someone who has done a lot of coursing/shooting etc (mainly with her Manchesters, but she had lurchers as well)
Originally Posted by Tassle
As do toy and mini poodles!!! (I have ever lasting memories of them at the grooming parlours hitting 18/19 etc!)
He survived without injury and lived for several years after without any problems.
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Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,859
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09-02-2011, 12:38 AM
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