U reading Copinger Jenny.? Remember it is Nature times Nurture not as many incorrectly state Nature versus Nurture.

ie Genetics may load the gun but environment fires it. However if a dog is genetically predispossed to gameness, socialisation may help but will never totally eradicate the trait, the term is extinction.

There are tens of thousands of Staffords out there that are not predisposed to fighting and interdog aggression, but the danger of crossbreeding with game dogs is the possible end of the breed for all owners.

Stan

yeh thats wot im reading ah then perhaps u cud answer a question on this other thread i bought up also about this book as it doesnt fit into this debate:
http://<br /> http://dogweb.co.uk/t...c&amp;start=15

my dogs are bred from game dogs, as Im sure Lauras and a few others here are too. That does not mean they are game, as they have never been tested in a pit, nor would they ever be but I channel their drive into hunting and chasing around after a lure and jumping and swimming, paying fetch etc. This works off their excess energy and keeps them fit.
On the whole I have to say that most of the dog aggressive breeds I have met on my walks have been non- bull breeds, the agressive GDS cross I mentioned before, he is a nightmare, he is a rescue dog from the cat and dog home and the woman has terrible problems with him even with a halti and a harness he pulls her all over the place, barks and growls at any other dog he sees and has his hackles up all the time. The black lab I also mentioned drags his owner all over the street, she always crosses the road when she sees anyone coming whether they have a dog or not, I actually have heard that this dog can be aggressive towards people as well as other dogs
there is a couple with a weim that has to be walked on a halti and he goes for any other dog he meets, they keep him chained up in the backyard and he barks all day while they go to work many people have complained but nothing ever gets done, the poor dog is most likely this way due to being kept as an only dog with poor socialisation as a puppy, I see a lot of people who struggle to walk their dogs and get pulled along, it worries me, and they arent even bull breeds!

I can hold my head up high and walk down the street with my staffs and they dont lunge at people or other dogs and they have waggy tails and want to be friends with everyone due to their being well socialised as pups and used to living with lots of other dogs of different ages. Most people where i live only have one dog and 9 times out of 10 it is a problem dog in some way, so my dogs are seen as being well behaved in contrast. when Im walking with my staffs and we meet an aggressive dog, my dogs usually just watch with interest as the other dog barks,snarls, lunges etc, they dont want to fight, but as Laura says, if the other dog starts it, they will finish it.

The precautions I take with my dogs are purely because I know that they could do a lot of damage if a fight did break out, so I do everything in my power to prevent that happeneing. But I choose the type of dog I have because I like and admire that drive that they possess, in comparison to staffies, I prefer Irish dogs as I have found them to have more energy and keeness to work, so that is why I favour this type of dog, hope thats explained things a bit better

This is all a bit uncomfortable isnt it? ops:

Personaly I think many of Doglisteners points are valid and in the interests of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier (...so I am comfortable avoiding the delivery/communication skills angle) maybe we should all step back and encourage other forum members who are not Staffordshire Bull Terrier/Irish Stafford owners to give their open and honest opinions, tell us their fears, perceptions, whether you you see them as being alarmist or not is unimportant (Just bite your lips ) because their honest opinions are "real time" opinions

I suspect the people discussing these possible/probable legislation changes are more likely to listen to the concerns of "ordinary folk/ dog owners" than Bull breed supporters?

It would be a good idea Runstock but I think most people would be intimidated by the thought and would rather keep themselves to themselves ...theres a lot of staffy people on here and most have very strong beliefs in what they do/like(as is only natural) and can be very verocious at disagreeing with people who do not feel the same

Ok ok ok - c'mon everyone lets calm down a bit and perhaps we can ALL learn something from this thread - I have so far.

No more having a go at anyone else please, let's try and stick to what’s being said rather than who’s saying it.

OK - Doglistener has acknowledged that he wasn't as clear as he could've been re how many generations of cross he could pick up. That is fine as sometimes we all make small errors whilst typing - at least he was big enough to admit his.

Whilst I agree some of his posts are a bit 'strong' but looking back, so are some of everyone else’s too, let's give him a chance and perhaps he may actually be able to 'help' our cause? I'm sure many of you would agree we'd rather have him on side particularly if he is involved with any committees whos viewpoint the govt may actually listen to.

So far from what I have read he seems to be saying 'Staffs' are fine, but what is a threat to them is people (possibly in Ireland) are crossing game bred pits into staffs and selling them here 'as' either Irish staffs or staffs or to those that want them, as pits. I think he's saying this will effect US (ie staffy owners) because these resulting dogs will, in the wrong hands be dangerous getting into allsorts of mischief and as the numbers will increase so will these 'incidents' then at that point the DDA will step in and ban ALL dogs of 'staff type'.

Is that what you are basically saying DL?

I think he's also further going on to say that 'glorifying' 'gameness' etc is not helping because it is going towards creating a demand for these dogs (ie the 'gamey' dogs).

Anyway that’s what i think Dl is trying to say. I’m not saying I agree or disagree, just that is the jist I am getting.

I think some other valid points have been raised tho and as SB said, I hope DL will also take these into account as they are coming from people who live with these dogs 24/7 and as seen here, often own more than one.

One of the points was and I can also second this from my own experience, is why is it that nearly all the 'aggressive' dogs we see on walks are NOT staffs? I have never seen one single staff that has been aggressive towards myself or Rocky - this even includes a pit bull which was owned by a couple in their 60's!! The offending dogs have been two border collies (who are also let out by themselves! and also show human 'dominance') a black lab and two tiny dogs whose breed I haven't stuck around to find out! Oh and a springer spaniel and a jrt. Now I'm not saying these breeds are 'bad' but these particular dogs have perhaps not been brought up correctly? In addition staffs make up around 50% of the TOTAL dogs we see - so you can't say it is because there are more of the other breeds.

Perhaps something that might confuse things is that staffs and bull breeds are in fact stronger and although may not be dog aggressive, if attacked they will fight back and being the strong dogs they are, more than likely, the other dog would come of worse. But who's fault is this? You can't blame any animal for defending itself.

So there are valid points on both sides - lets try and work together to 'help' the breeds we love. And let's do so in a nice way too.

Personaly I think many of Doglisteners points are valid and in the interests of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier (...so I am comfortable avoiding the delivery/communication skills angle) maybe we should all step back and encourage other forum members who are not Staffordshire Bull Terrier/Irish Stafford owners to give their open and honest opinions, tell us their fears, perceptions, whether you you see them as being alarmist or not is unimportant (Just bite your lips ) because their honest opinions are "real time" opinions

I suspect the people discussing these possible/probable legislation changes are more likely to listen to the concerns of "ordinary folk/ dog owners" than Bull breed supporters

Runstock thats what i would like to hear other dog owners experiences with staffords and what they think of them and would like them to be honest about it no matter if it offends or not because they are the public and it is their opinion that will help keep the bull breeds or utterly destroy them
i have been reared with staffords all my life and my father was involved with all aspects of the stafford and i mean all aspects ....
below is an answer to a question directed at an APBT breeder and supporter and this guy fights BSL i dont particularly like his reply but he was honest in his answer
A: Gameness is the strong will to never quit a task (in the case of the APBT, a dog fight) despite pain and exhaustion. It is my belief that gameness does not guarantee good disposition, but does not rule it out either. People should not associate one with the other. These are two very different characteristics. Some game dogs may have good dispositions, some may not. Gameness may represent determination and courage, but doesn't assure stability, good disposition, or sound temperament. If breeders want to make sure the dogs they produce have a good temperament, they must breed with that trait in mind.

Unfortunately, many breeders breed game dogs with no regard for temperament, believing naively that gameness is all it takes to ensure stable dogs. Old-time dogmen (breeders of game-dogs) didn't have as many dogs in their yard as many breeders of today. They could therefore recognize a man-biter and remove it from the gene pool. However, not all old-timers culled man-biters. Some famous people-aggressive dogs were bred a long time ago because they were devastating in the pit. Their genes still run in the blood of the most popular gamebred bloodlines.

Today, not only will some dogmen knowingly breed a man-biter if they think it will provide them with pit champions, but since they often have several APBTs living on chains in their yard, they don't always know what temperament these dogs will have in real pet situations.

If you plan to acquire a gamebred dog, you should research bloodlines carefully and make sure the dog you select was not bred for its fighting abilities and gameness only, but for good disposition as well. But, of course, I urge you not to buy a gamebred dog. To breed game dogs, the breeder must fight the breeding stock. Only the dogs that do not quit a severe dog fight are bred. The others are eliminated. If you purchase a pup from a breeder that gametests, you support this cruel activity

good post Azz !!

good post runstock and eraze,
i have made my opinions clear on staffys. before i joined dogweb i would have said they were all evil but i was going on only the staffy i knew. since being on dogweb i have learnt about some wonderful staffys ie emmas, candies, staffys,lels, kazz'z and jennys and whoever else i have forgot. oh and of course my fave (how could i forget!) the wonderful dinah. i am glad i have got to know about these lovely dogs so i wasnt so blinkered and tarring the whole breed as it was narrow minded of me. however this doesnt change the fact that myself and a lot of people i know only get to meet a lot of the unfortunate staffys that have falllen into the hands of morons who own them as an extension to their own ego. a lot of areas these days have there sections of people who not many of us would choose to associate with i am not a snob i just have morals and standards. these people dont love their dogs like we do they treat them like little bodyguards and encourage no socialisation or decent behaviour they just give them a kick if they are rough with their kids or get on there nerves. any dog owned by these people would probably end up bad tempered and unfortunately for staffys they have by and large become the breed these morons want to own they wouldnt look very tough with a poodle now would they. so this is the problem as i see it a huge part of the population especially non dog loving will see nothing past these people clogging up the areas with bad mannered foaming at the mouth dogs who ruin the reputation of the whole breed. i havent a clue how anyone can change this but it is how it is as i see it. max has been attacked by 2 staffys both unprovoked as he was on the lead and he was bit by a westie but that was one he got to run at before i got hold of him. other dogs that max ran at when he was younger would sometimes growl and warn him off but the only dog that ever got max by the neck was a staffy and i know a lot of people with the same experience. there is also two dog walkers who live near me who rightly or wrongly advertise that they will not walk staffys.

I like staffs and I have not met one that wanted to fight with Star. I am happy to let my kids pet them after being given the ok by the owner.

It does worry me all this talk about vicious bull breeds as I have one myself who could if pushed do a lot of damage to another dog, especially as the other dogs most likely to attack are the smaller breeds who would come off worse if Star defended herself.