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rune
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15-07-2009, 08:28 AM
Originally Posted by kcjack View Post
So does the rescues your associatted with rehome entire young males?
The policy of the rescue I worked with and my own policies were two very different things.

For reasons which should be obvious!

The rescues I know of that rehome unneutered dogs are those run 'privately' by a few people. That doesn't mean they are doing a bad job.

In my book anyone involved in any kind of rescue work is trying to help the animals concerned.

I hate this sniping at other rescues and wanting people to 'name names' that comes through in posts.

rune
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IsoChick
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15-07-2009, 08:36 AM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
Sorry, I did not say they did . what I said, was that most dogs who have been neutered/spayed in the show ring, will have been done for health reasons.

There is still a huge bias against castrated dogs in the ring, and it would be e unusual for a judge to place a neutered dog over an intact one, unless it was already know, or a amazing specimen of the breed.

After all the ethos of showing is to establish the best to continue the breeding programme, and many a judge/exhibitor will still follow that ethos.
Oh, totally agree... we only show Murphy for a bit of fun. I have no illusions of us winning trophys and the like!
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JoedeeUK
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15-07-2009, 09:08 AM
Originally Posted by kcjack View Post
Dawn my lab paddy was speyed at 3 and my springer at 3 and a half as they started ripping each other to shreds and having them both castrated stopped it although my springer ended up very very dog aggressive to dogs outside the home which is why would never let it get to that stage again was like living in a war zone.



You have lost me you had one spayed & both castrated ??

I would expect a dog aggressive dog to get more aggressive after castration if the aggression is not hormone related-this is why dogs should be chemically castrated first to assess the situation in a medically correct way. Sadly few vets /owners do this they go straight for the"jugular"& remove the testicles
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JoedeeUK
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15-07-2009, 09:13 AM
Originally Posted by kcjack View Post
So does the rescues your associatted with rehome entire young males?
Our GSD rescue cannot afford to castrate/spay all the dogs/bitches that go through the rescue-at a minimum of £150 a time that would mean having to generate at least 400 @ £150 every year(£60,000)before the feeding & other veterinary treatment is accounted for. Some come in already neutered-oddly enough these are usually the ones with the really bad behavioural problems-the owners substituting neutering for training & this is not just my experience over the past few years, but the last 40 + !!
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Borderdawn
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15-07-2009, 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by IsoChick View Post
Just to clarify, the KC didn't ask anything about why Murphy had been neutered. We just filled the form in, and a couple of weeks later got the letter back, no questions asked!
Yes that is correct now for both males and females.

Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
Sorry, I did not say they did . what I said, was that most dogs who have been neutered/spayed in the show ring, will have been done for health reasons.

There is still a huge bias against castrated dogs in the ring, and it would be e unusual for a judge to place a neutered dog over an intact one, unless it was already know, or a amazing specimen of the breed.

After all the ethos of showing is to establish the best to continue the breeding programme, and many a judge/exhibitor will still follow that ethos.
I agree with this too. Its different for a bitch in many breeds as people cannot tell whether they have been spayed or not, in fact in some breeds exhibitors not interested in breeding have been known to spay a bitch to enhance the coat. My Breeze was spayed due to closed Pyometra, she subsequently won a reserve CC, it was not "hidden" she was spayed, in fact it was talked about on the breed forum run by breeders and exhibitors, and still is, in the way that the symptoms of the problem may help others. So I think its "cosmetic" to many, you cant "see" a bitch is spayed but you can a dog being neutered. I also think in many dogs they lose muscle mass and hard condition after being neutered, this may also play a part in a judge looking for a fit dog.
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Borderdawn
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15-07-2009, 09:19 AM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
Our GSD rescue cannot afford to castrate/spay all the dogs/bitches that go through the rescue-at a minimum of £150 a time that would mean having to generate at least 400 @ £150 every year(£60,000)before the feeding & other veterinary treatment is accounted for. Some come in already neutered-oddly enough these are usually the ones with the really bad behavioural problems-the owners substituting neutering for training & this is not just my experience over the past few years, but the last 40 + !!
This is how we found it in Lab rescue, we just couldnt afford to have them all neutered, the emphasis was on finding the right home, one the dog would be safe in for the rest of its life. I also agree that many, particular male Labs that were neutered early displayed more "behaviour" issues, usually those were the reasons they came in. Dog aggression and nervous aggression were at the top of the list, if only they still had their testosterone, Im sure it would of been much better for them, easier for us to work with, and a suitable home could of been found sooner rather than later for these dogs.
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Tupacs2legs
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15-07-2009, 09:35 AM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Yes that is correct now for both males and females.



I agree with this too. Its different for a bitch in many breeds as people cannot tell whether they have been spayed or not, in fact in some breeds exhibitors not interested in breeding have been known to spay a bitch to enhance the coat. My Breeze was spayed due to closed Pyometra, she subsequently won a reserve CC, it was not "hidden" she was spayed, in fact it was talked about on the breed forum run by breeders and exhibitors, and still is, in the way that the symptoms of the problem may help others. So I think its "cosmetic" to many, you cant "see" a bitch is spayed but you can a dog being neutered. I also think in many dogs they lose muscle mass and hard condition after being neutered, this may also play a part in a judge looking for a fit dog.
also i think the reason you may have to have a letter to show castrated males,is that whats to say that they wern't there in the first place?(cryptorchid)
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JoedeeUK
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15-07-2009, 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by Tupacs2legs View Post
also i think the reason you may have to have a letter to show castrated males,is that whats to say that they wern't there in the first place?(cryptorchid)
The form to inform the KC doesn't have any mention on it about the dog being entire before being neutered
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Borderdawn
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15-07-2009, 09:50 AM
Originally Posted by Tupacs2legs View Post
also i think the reason you may have to have a letter to show castrated males,is that whats to say that they wern't there in the first place?(cryptorchid)
No I dont think it does (confirmed in joedee's link) Point being I suppose whether he had one or not means little as he wont be used for breeding anyway now he is neutered.
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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15-07-2009, 09:56 AM
well i rescue so i have no choice in the matter

i dont think dogs should be done as tiny pups, they are babies, but i have no problems with doing a bitch before her first season and males after their balls have droped

i disagree with neutering to fix behavioural problems, if there are problems fix them before sending the dog into a hormone rollercoster

round here there are lots of dogs
of all the dog walkers here with intact bitches every single bitchs season had a really bad effect on her personality, getting far too timid and snappy, and the effects lasted for months, so every single one of those bitches have been done

of the males, at least 1/2 when a bitch is in heat become so stressed, going off their food, hurting themselves trying to escape and just being depressed that most of those owners have had or are about to get their dogs done

some of the other owners of males not affected by the bitches in seasons dogs developed aggression problems, some rode it out and trained it and the dogs matured pretty ok. some had the dogs done, this has made some of the dogs worse and more unpredictable

but round here there are lots of strays too, dogs that form packs that wait at the front door to race in to a in season bitch, that scale fences, that gang up on bitches on the lead

also some of the dog walkers before they got their bitches done didnt bother to tell me that their bitch was in heat as she raced off to play with ben, cos these people wanted ben to catch her, cos they would have great pups!

and finally (i dont half take the pee outa this post quick reply button)
crossbreed owners arnt worse than the average pet owner. of all the 'pet bred' dogs round here there are far more crossbreeds (two breeds in the dog) than total bitsas (many breeds in the dog) that says to me that it isnt the crossbreed owners letting their dogs have little accidental litter, but the owners of purebreed dogs

personaly i think every breeder should be licensed and each individual dog they wish to breed from should also be licensed, no other pups should be able to be sold, any accidents should be taken to a rehoming centre with a large fine to cover the costs of rehoming, and neutering should be free
bet there would be less accidents, i know its not possible and there would be underground breeders
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