Adam, we've been through this before & pointed out that this just shows your complete lack of understanding of OC principles & pos reinforcement training. You aren't doing yourself any favours by repeating such nonsense

And whilst "anti-pull equipment" may be considered as pos punishment & neg reinforcement if it hurts the dog, (& I've certainly not seen any evidence that properly fitted harnesses do actually cause pain, while there's a wealth of evidence that electric shock collars do), that's a rather feeble argument to justify the application of painful electric shocks to a dog in the interests of training

Ah, so without actual factual information if you say it causes pain then it causes pain, it can't be anything other than pain, and no-one can have an opinion, their reasoning is irrelevant, and you speak for everyone? Phew, well that answers everything and we can stop all debates now and just ask you?

regards,

Austin

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word "sarcasm" derives from ancient Greek for "to tear flesh, gnash the teeth, speak bitterly." Its first definition is "a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter gibe or taunt." Although sarcasts may just intend to be funny, their words can also be very hurtful to the intended target ~ and very often not in the least bit funny, but just a signal that the sarcast cannot conduct a well-reasoned & logical debate.

That's the old getout isn't it, 'properly fitted'? You only need to read thes boards to find examples of harnesses rubbing a dog raw in places, didn't need to look too hard for 'evidence' that even a harness causes pain, and I'm certain those owners thought it was 'properly fitted'. Now a true dog lover according to some wouldn't be selective about which pain they do or don't allow, any pain is a bad thing and the item causing it should be banned.

regards,

Austin

I wasn't trying to "get out" of anything ~ just making a common sense statement! And if owners have dogs that have been rubbed raw by ill-fitted harnesses & don't have the common sense to realise what is causing these sores & pain, & stop using the harness, then perhaps they're not "true dog lovers" anyway!

I agree. Another point, which I have experienced, is that the head collar I got fitted very well indeed. It rubbed because my dog did not like to wear it and rolled to get it off. Therefore, I stopped using it.

Yep, simple ~ at least for any caring dog owner!

Please feel free to start a thread on harnesses and other devices
THIS thread is about e-collars
It is not a good argument to say e-collars are OK because other people may or may not train with pain

Yes of course pain is a bad thing
- so you are agreeing that e collars cause pain

Which ones do they supply?

Really? It goes off on some serious tangents attacking the OP and dozens of random discussions about who did what and who said what and who knows who, perhaps comparable arguments using "friendly" seeming equipment to counter the same arguments leveled against the offending collars is too off thread? How very careless, please accept my most humble apology.

My view on pain is that it's subjective, and unavoidable.

regards,

Austin