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View Poll Results: Which CM methods do you use on your dog?
Do you make sure your dog has enough exercise? 26 68.42%
Do you use "calm Energy" when handling your dogs? 7 18.42%
Have you ever used Foot tapping for attention? 1 2.63%
Have you ever used Foot tapping for correction? 0 0%
Have you ever used "tsstg" for attention 1 2.63%
Have you ever used "tsstg" for correction 1 2.63%
Have you ever used the "hand bite" for attention 0 0%
Have you ever used the "hand bite" for correction 0 0%
Do you use prong collars 0 0%
Do you use the illusion collar, or other NONslip slipcollar 0 0%
Have you ever used flooding to overcome your dogs fear 0 0%
Have you ever pinned your dog to the floor 1 2.63%
Have you ever pinned your dog to the fllor for any reason other than aggression 1 2.63%
Do you alpha roll your dog? 0 0%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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cava14una
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05-10-2009, 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Agree, one of the most important things to teach a very active dog is "how" to chill out.

Wys
x
I so agree with that, my greatest achievement is teaching Zymi my working lines Beardie to settle
cordie
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05-10-2009, 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
I think people need to be aware also that CM doesn`t actually `train` dogs. He tries to address problems, but doesn`t train. So none of his methods are suitable for teaching heelwork, sit, recall etc.
I see Scarter refers to these as `tricks. ` They are not tricks. They are the building blocks of your dog`s behaviour.
Down stay / distance control / off-lead work / agility / man-work etc. are all taught behaviours and cannot be taught by CM methods.
Many people don`t realise that you actually need to teach a dog to do these behaviours on cue - and that you need to teach them the cues. I so often see people shouting SETTLE DOWN or HANG ON! to a dog who hasn`t got a clue what is wanted. I wish all dogs came with a large label saying `This animal doesn`t Speak Your Language!`.
c m himself says at the beginning of the programme, i dont train dogs, i train humans, i agree with wys too, that you cant generalise all dogs, they are all different, and what would work for one, wouldnt for another, we all love and care for our dogs as best we can, some of cms ideas are good, others not so good, remember barbara woodhouse?
ClaireandDaisy
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05-10-2009, 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by cordie View Post
c m himself says at the beginning of the programme, i dont train dogs, i train humans,
that`s a cop-out IMO. The reason he doesn`t train dogs is that you can`t, using his methods.
CheekyChihuahua
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05-10-2009, 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
that`s a cop-out IMO. The reason he doesn`t train dogs is that you can`t, using his methods.
You certainly can There's a few of us on here that can confirm that CM methods do work for us. We just don't try to shove them down other peoples' throats. I'm not bothered what methods people use to train their dogs, just so long as they don't try to tell me what I'm doing is wrong. Everyone should be able to choose which training methods they adopt, without being shouted down
Promethean
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05-10-2009, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
That's the whole point, Wys, it ISN'T !! It's the commonsense way of doing things, and that's what CM's methods are ... pure commonsense.
Actually a lot of it seems to be based on folkloric tales of wolves and the cultural believes about dogs that he grew up with. Common is what he uses because it is his substitute for actual KNOWLEDGE.

Yesterday I saw him and he was talking about a dog that was ANXIOUS AND BECAME FEARFUL WHO THEN BECAME DOMINANT. Than people can swallow these snake oil explanations is beyond me.
scarter
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05-10-2009, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
I get what you mean Gnasher, and I think I've always said that there are bits of CM methods that many of us would agree with (and I think we also agree that they are not exactly his methods, but him reiterating in public what many have said previously, about how dogs need exercise, etc).

I do have a problem with agreeing with anything he says on some levels, because of my view about the rest of what he does.

So, although I can agree with you in that some of what he says, (ie exercise) is good for dogs, I feel uncomfortable about "supporting" him in any way by saying yes, lots of common ground here, sort of thing. I am absolutely secure in the fact that he does use what are extreme and abusive methods, so I cannot support him as such even if there does appear to be common ground .

It's like me saying I support someone who believes in exercise for humans, but will still use brutal methods in the human world to those humans who had the misfortune to be under his/her control - which would be unthinkable.

So, I go so far as to say that I acknowledge there is the odd good thing he suggests, and perhaps there is "common ground" there - but not further than that: and even saying that does make me personally feel uncomfortable!

Wys
x
Wys, I get the impression that your intentions are good. I *think* (forgive me if I'm mistaken) that you mentioned elsewhere that you advised your students not to use CM's techniques?

Think about what you've just said, and bearing in mind that (again, I think) I remember you saying that you approved of the way I raise my dogs (based upon what I'd told you).

Now consider that very many people that watch CM and use his methods are using the very same bits that I and others on this thread find work so well. The advise that CM gives out for normal dogs isn't really anything that your average trainer would dissaprove of - UNTIL you tell them that the advice came from CM. If you start ranting on to me about CM's techniques being cruel I just assume you need your bumps felt I know that what I do is not by any stretch of the imagination cruel and I know that it does work. Others might be more willing to blindly follow the advice of the teacher at their local training club. In which case, think about what you're telling them is cruel:

1. Exercising their dog.
2. Having rules, boundaries and limitations
3. Being a firm and consistent leader
4. Treating them like dogs rather than children

...and so on. It might not be the message you intend to convey, but if you aren't entirely honest and spell out what you think is good and what you think is bad you will misslead your students and that could be harmful to their dogs.

Are you absolutely sure you're giving your students the message that you want to give them?

Rather than making blanket statements about the man and his methods that to the unbiased, educated observer are clearly untrue and unfounded why not accept that much of what he does is fine (perhaps not what you do, but certainly not cruel and according to all accounts very many people have considerable success with it) and concentrate on presenting very articulate explanations as to why you think certain aspects are cruel?

It's these blanket 'hate campaigns' and quite obvious misrepresentation of the facts that cause people to dismiss you as cranks and take no notice of what are perhaps some valid arguments.
Promethean
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05-10-2009, 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
You have to be breed aware though Heather! Tai is an Alaskan Malamute crossed with Siberian Husky. I think you would agree with me that they run for many miles ... in the case of Mals, pulling extremely heavy loads!

We moderate our speed to give Tai a good work out. Most of the time he is trotting - some of the time he breaks into a canter. He absolutely loves these ritualised hunts that we take him on.

Esp. for a dog with running in his genes, it is the very best thing that you can do - run for miles.
But the comment is correct, they don't travel at high speeds. They may do short bursts, no more. They don't run at high speed. Wherever you got that notion, it is wrong. They travel at around 18-20 km/h (for a large dog)

They also don't pull extremely heavy loads. They loads are relatively light when we divide them among the team, and the real issue is breaking the initial momentum. Once it's moving, they only have to maintain enough force to counteract the friction.
Promethean
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05-10-2009, 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
When OH and I go out on our mountain bikes with Tai, we are going on a hunt in his eyes.
That just you continuing with your long history of mental cross-species telepathy.


We are a pack
All the evidence says you are not.
Promethean
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05-10-2009, 08:10 PM
Gnasher, Millan does take unfit dogs and excercises them to the point of exhaustion. Many of the dog on the show have short walks only a couple of times per week, some even less than that. As a runner, I can tell you that aerobic fitness does not come from walking, and even a month of not running results in significant drop in my aerobic capacity.


Originally Posted by scarter View Post

1. Exercising their dog.
2. Having rules, boundaries and limitations
3. Being a firm and consistent leader
4. Treating them like dogs rather than children
1. Nice
2. Meaningless platitude
3. By firm he means hit.
4. We share much in common with other animals, so unless you (or Millan) provides a specif example this is another meaningless platitude
Tupacs2legs
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05-10-2009, 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Indeed, Ben ! If I had a strong criticism of CM's methods (apart from the gadget thing), it would be just what you are illustrating. Idiot humans who totally misinterpret what he is advising. I watched very carefully several if not many of his programmes before I started attempting to mimic him. I was amazed at how rapidly I achieved results with Hal, but that's another story. You raise a very good point. That people watch 1 or 2 episodes, and start pssts and oi-ing all over the place, and the dog becomes desensitized very quickly.

It all about structure. One of the first hings I tried with Hal was to walk to heel on the lead. It had always been very poor before ... he took me for a walk, not t'other way round.

Within seconds, if not 1 minute, I had Hal walking to heel without pulling. All I did was put him on the lead, set off down the lane, and as soon as he started to pull instead of fighting him all the way, I just gave one gentle tug at the same time as saying "heel", before instantly releasing the pressure. He instantly obeyed, instead of fighting against my pressure. This is, admittedly, very effective with the sled dog breeds in particular, because they of course will pull instinctively. The more pressure you put on the lead, the more they will pull, it's in their breeding. To start with I used the "ssshh" sound because I thought that was softer than tsst or oi or eh. I built on it from there, but it was the instantaneousness of this basic simple thing that impressed me so.

Calm, assertive energy is Cesar's mantra - not randomly hissing and pulling on a lead !
hi slightly off topic,sorry
i cannot answer for the other sled dog breeds but in the case of sibes it is not the desire to pull that makes them excel at their job(although it helps)it is their gait,whilst working,they can do it endlessly and will only use as much effort as they need,no more
for example,when i was a hydrotherapist i would swim my oldest bitch in full jets,she would plod on forever without raising a pant,i wouldn't of been able to do this with many other breeds of dogs.
all my sibes can walk perfectly to heel and also pull in harness
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