|
|
Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
|
28-07-2011, 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs 
With respect WYS...... I deal with dog aggression cases most days. That is what we do. For a living. Fights are extremely rare but it is my belief that you can not resolve issues with dogs who can not communicate effectively without using other dogs, and this enevitably runs the risk, that some aggressive symptoms will arise. As I said, if they do, I wont break the fight up with a sausage.
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs
usualy if you keep the pup safely away from them when you cant supervise, distract when needed and make other things more exciting and rewarding the pup sees no interest in a cable that is there all the time and has much more desire to chew the fun things you give them (worked with Mia who chomped my internet cable - she has (touch wood) never chewed anything again since)
With respect, in my view using distraction methods can encourage the dog to focus on other things for sure. But it wont necessarily discourage the dog to not want the original thing. Apart from in helping the habit not to form - which is indeed a great way of doing things!
The problem though with some distraction techniques as used by some people as I see it, is this. . . .
I know I would never do what I am describing below, but in an effort to illustrate my concerns with some distraction techniques I will use this as an illustration.......
If one was going to train a dog TO chew a cable
One would allow the interest in the cable to develop, mark the actual incident with a marker (usually a clicker in my case) then follow that marker with a reward.
If someone is going to use distraction to teach a pup not to show interest in a cable.....
One would allow the interest in the cable to develop, mark the actual incident with a marker (usually a friendly voice, or reacll, or similar) then follow that marker with a reward.
Its the same process. How does the dog know if it supposed to touch the cable or not?
you reward them for playing with the thing you want them to play with
you reward them when they are being nice and calm
you reward them when they are doing things you would like them to do
You make the things you want them to chew really interesting and rewarding
My dogs only chew things that I give them to chew because I have trained them that
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs
Wow. I'm stunned by that. Maybe I have misunderstood your point?
I think that what happens in the first few seconds of a dog performing a new behaviour is the absolute OPTIMUM time when training should occur. There is no habit, there is no previous experience, there is a dog with its mind very much OPEN to a new experience to learn from. I agree later training may be necessary, but those intial seconds are crucial. In my view.
If my dog looks like it might put its paws in a camp fire say, I want to make sure that it really thinks that is not a good idea. I dint want to have to "train" it over a long time period. Dogs commonly (though not exclusively) learn, as we all know, by what happens Very soon after an event. If you dont train immediately after an event then the dog can learn, sometimes permanently, the wrong thing.
I said I STOP the emergancy from happening - and THEN train
for example if a dog has something in his mouth that will kill him and I havent trained a good give then I do whatever it takes to get that out of the dogs mouth
If it is life or death then I have no problem sticking my hands in my dogs mouth (but usualy scattering chicken works well with most dogs)
I dont consider that point training in any way
THEN I would train a good 'give' 'swap' and 'leave it'
but of course that is something that I would usualy have tried to train early on
I do what it takes in the emergancy THEN I train the behaviour I want
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs
Idont really know what modern media says (apart from forums)ra _ I can only gauge it from my customers. But they want food based training. I give them food and toy based training. As long as it works according to heir needs.
Made me more self conscious.....erm interesting question but yes quite possibly.
Have I seen handlers who are limiting their methods??
OH YESSSSSSSSS! And getting into real trouble on the way! No doubt about that.
Sometimes people will allow their dogs to do shocking things and then I say, "are you not bothered about that????" And they say, "yes but I cant tell him off can I?" and I say "Why not?" Then they have this look of relief and they say, "so i CAN tell him off?????". And I say, "its your dog and given the circumstances, I think he needs some kind of guidance about the fact that taking the sandwich from your childs plate whilst she is eating is really not a good thing"
Its amazing what confusion people have over what is and isn't ok to do.
But why tell a dog of for stealing food - until you have trained something different they are not being bad - they are just being a dog - as a trainer wouldnt it be better for you to show them how to train a dog to leave food?
Originally Posted by sarah1983
THIS is what the problem is, it's not the methods themself, it's the way people interpret them. "Positive training" to many people is simply using food as a reward. They'll still yank the dog around, still push or pull it into position, still alpha roll it but they think that because they reward with food it's positive training.
Then you've got the other side of the coin, those who think it means you have to tolerate anything and everything your dog does because you can never let them know that it's unacceptable.
And the ones who think positive training means you just bribe the dog into behaving and then have to carry treats around with you for the rest of the dogs life. And that you cannot use positive methods with a dog who isn't food motivated.
well said
Originally Posted by Minihaha
Ben
that video is straight out of the 'Shadowboxer' training manual ...for those who do not know ..
http://www.dogsey.com/lesley-bruce.htm
Excellent posts from people who don't blow their own trumpets but belonging to the very select few I would trust to care for my dogs.
I would so gladly look after your dogs - I know they would be a joy
|
|
Location: UK
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 709
|
28-07-2011, 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs
No most of the time you dont - but can I ask how do you break up the fight and what training is occuring at that point?
[COLOR="Red"]Most of the time I don't what? Sorry I dont understand. ?
There are a number of methods depending on the situation. But where possible a noise aversion will be used to temporarily interrupt the behaviour. It works well and as the the dogs are reconsidering their next move they are called away and usually come wilingly, glad that the confrontation is over.
you missed the end of it - you call the pup to you and reward them for coming towards you
you reward them for playing with the thing you want them to play with
you reward them when they are being nice and calm
you reward them when they are doing things you would like them to do
You make the things you want them to chew really interesting and rewarding
My dogs only chew things that I give them to chew because I have trained them that
I dont understand what you are saying here either . Sorry.
they will only learn if them doing the thing is rewarding to them
I said I STOP the emergancy from happening - and THEN train
for example if a dog has something in his mouth that will kill him and I havent trained a good give then I do whatever it takes to get that out of the dogs mouth
If it is life or death then I have no problem sticking my hands in my dogs mouth (but usualy scattering chicken works well with most dogs)
I dont consider that point training in any way
THEN I would train a good 'give' 'swap' and 'leave it'
but of course that is something that I would usualy have tried to train early on
I think perhaps you missed the point of what I was trying to explain - perhaps I explained it poorly?
Marking a behaviour and rewarding it will NOT stop a dog from wanting to do something, it may well want to do it more. That is the whole method behind clicker training. How would you distract the dog from teh cable? Whatever you use, your voice, your food, a toy, is MARKING the behaviour you do not want and then you are rewarding that marl point.
I do what it takes in the emergancy THEN I train the behaviour I want
You are lucky you have people who have a clue about positive training - most people round here punish first in most cases
But why tell a dog of for stealing food - until you have trained something different they are not being bad - they are just being a dog - as a trainer wouldnt it be better for you to show them how to train a dog to leave food?
well said
I am sad I joined here too late to meet shadowboxer
I would so gladly look after your dogs - I know they would be a joy
I just find peoples views fascinating.
|
|
|
|
Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
|
28-07-2011, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs
I am genuinely curious about your thinking. Nothing I have said is meant as offensive in any way, I really hope none is taken.
I just find peoples views fascinating.
like I said I know most people use other methods, I have used choke chains in the past (and hated it) I ahve used ehh hheee and stuffYour first point with the noise thing with dogs fighting - I wouldnt consider the dogs have been trained anything about how to handle other dogs at that point, I wouldnt consider with most dogs the noise to be punishing but rather to startle them so they get the chance to back out of the fight
trust me, after Mia being in surgery when she was onlead attacked by an offlead dog I do whatever it takes to stop a fight - I am not flapping a treat about going 'please stop' - because in flight or fight mode the dogs are unable to eat anyways
but I am not punishing the dog, or rewarding them - I am stopping the fight
then I go back another day and train the dogs to be happy around each other
as for the cable one - yes I think I understand what you are saying - but the difference is that I do not let them repeate the behaviour
the kissy noise is not repeated again and again as the dog goes back to the same place, the kissy noise distracts them away from it then I consider how to train the situation
Its like training 'off' from the sofa - yes if not done correctly the dog can jump back on the sofa so they can practise off again
just shows a smart dog
you have to reward off AND staying off
or you can teach off and on - and then dont reward when they jump on not on cue
|
|
|
|
Location: cornwall uk
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,132
|
28-07-2011, 10:41 PM
It certainly isn't always dogs who haven't learnt how to behave around others, usually it is dogs seeing how far they can push bounderies. Sometimes I leave it alone---it isn't an exact science knowing when to interfere.
Benj has had a couple of interesting tries tonight, once blocking Champa by lying in a gap and just now setting Celt up and trying to block him from coming in. Champa was upset and asked me for help---which he got, Celt didn't really notice. Neither time did I raise my voice but I can see I might have to eventually.
Gone OT a bit---sorry.
Be interetsing to count no of times in a day voice is raised and what situations.
rune
|
|
|
|
Location: UK
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 709
|
28-07-2011, 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs
Not at all I enjoy seeing other peoples views too
like I said I know most people use other methods, I have used choke chains in the past (and hated it) I ahve used ehh hheee and stuffYour first point with the noise thing with dogs fighting - I wouldnt consider the dogs have been trained anything about how to handle other dogs at that point, I wouldnt consider with most dogs the noise to be punishing but rather to startle them so they get the chance to back out of the fight
trust me, after Mia being in surgery when she was onlead attacked by an offlead dog I do whatever it takes to stop a fight - I am not flapping a treat about going 'please stop' - because in flight or fight mode the dogs are unable to eat anyways
but I am not punishing the dog, or rewarding them - I am stopping the fight
then I go back another day and train the dogs to be happy around each other
as for the cable one - yes I think I understand what you are saying - but the difference is that I do not let them repeate the behaviour
the kissy noise is not repeated again and again as the dog goes back to the same place, the kissy noise distracts them away from it then I consider how to train the situation
Its like training 'off' from the sofa - yes if not done correctly the dog can jump back on the sofa so they can practise off again
just shows a smart dog
you have to reward off AND staying off
or you can teach off and on - and then dont reward when they jump on not on cue
So tell me, do you do dog to dog aggression rehabilitations? I love talking to folk who do - its such an amazing process
Your first point with the noise thing with dogs fighting - I wouldnt consider the dogs have been trained anything about how to handle other dogs at that point, I wouldnt consider with most dogs the noise to be punishing but rather to startle them so they get the chance to back out of the fight
Can I clarify what you are saying here - You wouldn't consider the dogs had been trained anything at WHICH point?
Do you think a startle is a reward then, if you don't consider it to be a punishment?????
I am genuinely interested in your views.
|
|
|
|
Location: UK
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 709
|
28-07-2011, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by rune
A fight is one thing 'handbags' is another. In handbag situations I use my voice and if that doesn't work I would physically stop the confrontation---unless I thought I might get hurt. Usually a hard sharp voice is enough. I then teach the dogs that they have to be polite around each other---so I suppose the splitting up is part of the traing.
It certainly isn't always dogs who haven't learnt how to behave around others, usually it is dogs seeing how far they can push bounderies. Sometimes I leave it alone---it isn't an exact science knowing when to interfere.
Benj has had a couple of interesting tries tonight, once blocking Champa by lying in a gap and just now setting Celt up and trying to block him from coming in. Champa was upset and asked me for help---which he got, Celt didn't really notice. Neither time did I raise my voice but I can see I might have to eventually.
Gone OT a bit---sorry.
Be interetsing to count no of times in a day voice is raised and what situations.
rune
It is very rare for my voice to be raised in this house, except in laughter and there is no fighting between any of my dogs - which is brilliant - because I had two fighting bitches for years = peace at last.
Most of the dog aggression stuff I talk about is my work, where confirmed or suspected aggression cases come in for assessment, and then where appropriate short or long term modification work. Fights in these situation are also extremely rare, but we are always well prepared for them. And we watch very carefully for the right time if we need to interrupt. As you say - it is not a precise science.
|
|
|
|
Location: Lincolnshire
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 9,080
|
28-07-2011, 10:58 PM
If you can stop consistently for two or three days, they tend to lose interest and the problem is solved
|
|
|
|
Location: UK
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 709
|
28-07-2011, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by sarah1983
But that's not how I'd distract the dog. I would distract with a sharp "AH!". If I felt it necessary I'd then find the dog something appropriate to do instead of chew the cable and reward for that but I would NOT set up the pattern of "show interest in the cable, be called away, get rewarded" because dogs pick up on those really quickly. Now if I have to "Ah!" Rupert I've found he redirects himself to something he knows is safe to chew or play with. Probably because I've stopped him from grabbing my things so often and then showed him where his toys were and had a quick game when he chose to grab them instead of what he'd originally gone for.
How would you discourage cable chewing?
The question was really for those that where tryign to distract without using any negative associations. Which is what a sharp "Ah" is. As I understand it.
|
|
|
|
Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
|
28-07-2011, 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs
Ok I think that there is still some confusion over the actual point of what I was saying, but not to worry - if it works for you - then great - good luck with it.
So tell me, do you do dog to dog aggression rehabilitations? I love talking to folk who do - its such an amazing process
Your first point with the noise thing with dogs fighting - I wouldnt consider the dogs have been trained anything about how to handle other dogs at that point, I wouldnt consider with most dogs the noise to be punishing but rather to startle them so they get the chance to back out of the fight
Can I clarify what you are saying here - You wouldn't consider the dogs had been trained anything at WHICH point?
Do you think a startle is a reward then, if you don't consider it to be a punishment?????
I am genuinely interested in your views.
I have also worked with a few friends with less bad problems - but at the moment I dont think I have the experience to be fair to launch myself on the public for agression issues
I mean that at the point you are breaking up a fight imo no training is taking place - its managment
I dont consider a startle to be a punishment or a reward (for most dogs) in the situations you are describing because the actual startle isnt effecting what the dog will do next time
Of course it could be a punishment depending on the dog
But if you are just using it to break the dogs focus so you can get them back to you and break up the fight then it is neither punishing or rewarding
imo if you wanted to use a punishment to stop dogs fighting then you would have to time it to the exact sec where the dog is just about to start a fight.
I want to add an observation here some of my friends had with their people aggressive ball obsessed dog (I wasnt working with them btw I saw it afterwards)
every time he started charging towards people they called him to his ball
so he figured out to run 1/2 way over to people then look back for his ball
a fail in his training most people would think
But actually without meaning to they had classically conditiond the dog
That day he made the link in his head between people and his ball
he loves his ball - it makes him happy
seeing people about suddenly made him happy
after a weekend of him charging 1/2 way towards people he stopped feeling the need to charge up, he just acts normal when people are about - but he is happy for strangers to pet him now (he is a v pretty boy) which was something in the past his owners were always having to catch people and stop them petting him
|
|