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Adam P
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03-04-2010, 08:39 PM
Shona, a cautiouse maybe!

These dog's fitted my criteria (see previouse posts) and were in some cases going to be pts or rehomed. I may have tried other aversives or PR in a different fashion, but in the case of the aversive I believe the other aversives would have been more severe than the e collar (there's lots of old tricks for livestock chasing that aren't nice) the PR approach (always my favoured approach) does work well but had been tried (in a good effective way) with these dogs and they weren't respondong.
Therefore I made the decision that an e collar approach was in their best interests and trained them with it, with success I might add.

Sorri, fair points. I felt the same way as you do when I first discovered e collar. Tone of voice isn't nicy nicy though. In my opinion a firm tone of voice (back by body language) will act as an aversive, the firmer the tone the stronger the aversive. Many dogs respond great to this others find it too aversive and become inhibited. Also my practical experience is some (not all people) who use exclusive tone of voice training have (at some stage) added a consequence to that aversive tone, maybe excluding the dog, shaking him or a light smack. I'm not suggesting anyone on here has done that though.
If people do this they're not really just using tone of voice there using tone of voice and threat of consequence.

I agree tone is a very valueable training aid though. I think with the right relationship you could use tone (happy = positive cross = aversive) as your solo approach, not everyone is capable of that relationship and I don't believe their dog should suffer (rehomed, pts, restricted lifestyle) as a result.

Adam[
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Tupacs2legs
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03-04-2010, 08:47 PM
i am sorry Adam
i feel you use the phrase 'dog would be pts' as an excuse for your methods of 'so called' training.
have you used your 'tool' on a csv? as i see you are from devon.
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Adam P
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03-04-2010, 08:48 PM
A intesting aside from this.

Several of the extremly anti e collar people have suggested that nr is ok.

Many people have made a big think about the word electric.

Would people be as anti e collars if they didn't work by electric but worked (using excatly the same approach) with a vibration?

Genuine question as I would like to know what makes people feel so bad about them.

Adam
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SibeVibe
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03-04-2010, 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post


Sibevibe

Yes, I would start off indivadually and get them avoiding sheep and recalling well, then have two together then three and so on. Just like anyway you'd build up group behaviour.

The malamutes owner had done ALL the right things but their circumstances changed which put them in this situation. Yes maybe they could have got rid (though as I've said before rescues aren't excatly desperate for large hairy dogs) but why should they? They love him, he loves them, he can be trained for the situation why rehome?


Adam
It's an interesting theory Adam but unfortunately one that does not play out for me The reality I can assure you would be very different . An e-collar has no place in responsible Siberian ownership, or with any breed.

It is not a question of re-homing, never was. More a question of allowing a Mal to free run when not surrounded by live stock. No need for an e collar then

Thank you for your time Adam. I appreciate it.

Take good care of yourself.

Seoniad.
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Adam P
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03-04-2010, 08:55 PM
Hi tupac. I didn't see your poast hence my unrelated post first.

Yes I do use the term pts, I'm sorry if that offends people but the relaity is dogs are often pts fortheir behavioural problems, indeed for quiete minor ones as well. I'm always aware that a dogs behaviou could b a death sentenance and that is one of my main motivator's.

Csv is short hand for check wolfdog? Being in devon I've encountered a few csv x's There are several breeders around producing them (some less well than others but that's another thread) No I havn't used one on csv simply because I havn;t encountered a csv that needed one. Like I say they're a small part of my work and csv aren't numerically huge (compared to collies) I have worked with one inuit x sarloos dog who was predatory who benifitted from one. I believe in europe were csv's are increasingly being used in SAR they do use them as the tool is very common in SAR around the world.

Adam
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Tupacs2legs
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03-04-2010, 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
A intesting aside from this.

Several of the extremly anti e collar people have suggested that nr is ok.

Many people have made a big think about the word electric.

Would people be as anti e collars if they didn't work by electric but worked (using exactly the same approach) with a vibration?
Genuine question as I would like to know what makes people feel so bad about them.

Adam
no,my 'tool box' consists of ,toys food and moi
i dont see avoidance of pain as training,i like a trust and bond with my dogs,admittedly with the breeds i own (except my collie suprise suprise)you have to 'think outside the box' sometimes,and things can take a while but hey,time,dedication and effort wins in the end
i try not to set my dogs up to fail in the first place
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Adam P
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03-04-2010, 09:03 PM
Sibevibe

That's fine your intitled to your opinion. My opinion is as someone who uses the approach on numerouse dogs that yes IT would be do able.

They couldn't do this with the malamute. They're location and lifestyle wouldn't have given them enough time to give him adequate exercse.

I must say even though your anti you've been very polite!

Adam
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Adam P
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03-04-2010, 09:07 PM
Tupac

That's a good point, my own dogs are easy like that, even the jrt. But if your circumstances changed you might think different! The malamute owner certainly did!

Interesting point. The more northern breeds I meet the more I like. I've always favoured collies and jrts. But I really seem to like (most) aspects of the northern temperment. I might consider one for my next dog, It would be interesting to see how I got on wth one wouldn't it?

Adam
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Tupacs2legs
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03-04-2010, 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Sibevibe

That's fine your intitled to your opinion. My opinion is as someone who uses the approach on numerouse dogs that yes IT would be do able.
They couldn't do this with the malamute. They're location and lifestyle wouldn't have given them enough time to give him adequate exercse.

I must say even though your anti you've been very polite!

Adam
worked but not lived with,in that scenario you really cannot judge without living with the northern breeds sibes in particular
put it this way,and you might not catch my drift...dont think an e collar would work to well on a cat?sibes have much more of that mindset.
i think it is awfull that a dog of this type is put in that situation to start with
and i dont mean to sound rude,just honest
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SibeVibe
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03-04-2010, 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Sibevibe

That's fine your intitled to your opinion. My opinion is as someone who uses the approach on numerouse dogs that yes IT would be do able.

They couldn't do this with the malamute. They're location and lifestyle wouldn't have given them enough time to give him adequate exercse.

I must say even though your anti you've been very polite!

Adam
Why thank you kind Sir

I have decades of experience with sibes, have seen training methods come and go, hopefully the e-collar to

Hope you stick around Dogsey

Take care.

Seoniad.
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