http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=z3ScfgHMKzI

This Working collie has great instinct!!!! enjoy!

I'm sorry but that's total rubbish if your dog has excellent confirmation for the show ring and a working background it can achieve both
I could name loads of working and show champion Dobermanns but heres just one he also happens to be my French males sire
International show Champion Graff Hajo Gino van neerlands stam
ipo3 schz3 champion tracker dog



where does that leave yours and your vets theory?

Mo and the Gang xx

Well lucky you, you're truely blessed, must say though, I've had dogs twice as long as you have.

Whew - lots of interesting points here

My puppy class woman just before christmas got herself a little lab puppy
It is from working lines and the difference is amazing
This little girl without being overexercised (cos she is still a pup) is muscle uppon muscle - not the chubby cute pups you see on TV. She is also a darker colour and is vv smart and hard working
That is just my only observation of a working lab

As for the rest
I think it is wrong to breed away from the temprament that the dog was origonaly bred for
If you do you have a dog that looks like the same dog but is not actually that breed
as in the 1st place the looks were less important than the job when the dogs were 1st bred

sure people are dumb and dont recearch their breeds they just want something pretty - but it is not helping the situation giving some people say soft dobies
That means that someone who thinks they know the breed and thinks they can cope cos they have seen other people with a show couch potaoe might end up with a unexpected nightmare if they get a dog from a different line

Collies are of course my breed of choice
and yup the farmer didnt care what colour the eyes were, nose or anything - as long as they had the drive to do the job
In a litter some pups are born without the drive and they are sold to pet homes (well good farmers do that) and the good workers are bred to the good workers and so a better chance of good workers being born
The breed standard (AFAIK) was just written at a snapshot in time of a selection of collies at the time
But why is something like blue eyes a fault on a black and white dog?? did it make the dog less able to do its job?? nope it was just less common so was left out of the standard
I have seen some lovely b/w farm dogs with blue eyes - its stunning - and good workers
Then of course some of the prettier farm dogs are shown
someone judges them good looking and people want to breed from them
and the pups are pretty too - and win in some shows - people who dont want to work them but do shows buy the pups and breed from the winners
judges like a fuller coat and so more fuller coat dogs win so people breed more for a fuller coat (or a baby face or whatever is winning)
Take a look at the westminster collies from last year - all fairly heavyset dogs with long backs and v round heads
all v similar
go to any farm and look at the dogs - all v different

As for the agility or obedience or anything
It is v difficult to breed just for that sport
The reasons these dogs excell at these things is their fantastic brains and work ethic - the working dog needs far more brains than the agility dog - if you just breed for good at agility then you are not breeding to that over the top standard and you start to get dogs that are just a bit average - and often have to breed out again to a working dog
Why not just rescue the pups who did not make the grade on the farm - still overqualified for dog sports



Its a shame I used to really love crufts till I think about what the dogs were supposed to be
The old english and bearded collies - lovely looking dogs but the coat is really too much for any farmer - I cannot see him breeding for a dog that cannot see for all its hair

and of course there is already the storie of the JRT and the parsons JRT - and example of the show type moving so far away from the working type that they had to give it another name (at least that is what I have been told happend - I am sure there are more knowladgble people out there)

As usual I have typed too much
In summary
If you dont breed for work/temprament then you loose the breed - you have a pretty looking dog but it is not the origonal breed

your last sentence sums up why I started this thread Pam, well said, Re: rotts and Dobes, more and more of these breeds are having injuries to ligaments eg; cruciate etc, I also noted on another thread last night that the JS height limit is being reduced for show dogs.

here we go again, the KC are trying to alter a breed for the show ring methinks.

I expect you have also been driving longer than me too it doesn't make you a better driver though!!!!!!!!!!!

I also noticed your aviator is a rottie do you use your dog's to herd cattle I think not

Mo and the Gang xx

I believe, it's the breed club that want it, not the KC.

I do, My dogs are with sheep and cattle all the time, ps Im the breeder of neros dog,

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=64951

And I'll thank you eternally for breeding them Shona.

Have to correct you there, ALL German dogs have to prove they can work before being bred from & in Germany the three types of GSD(show, working(as in Schutzhund)& herding)must ALL pass a breed surveyKorung) before being bred for. This ensures that the breed can still do the job they were developed for & also retain their appearance

On the other hand the English type GSD has no such requirements(not even to having the health tests)& becuase of their incorrect structure(short legs, very deep chests, very long bodies & in many cases doubtful temperaments-means that they would not physically be able to herd sheep or cattle nor do the agility & procteion work etc reuired of Schutzhund-Ergo the English type are bred solely for showing & companion(non working) lives