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Location: Stockton on Tees
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,005
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26-12-2010, 08:59 PM
Its all good and well saying it should be kept alive for further study however, once you think on the practical application of such, it becomes somewhat problematic.
1. At the seen the dog must be contained securely until:
A) the victem has been delt with.
B) the dog has calmed enough to be moved.
Depending on the situation, there may not be anywhere secure enough to hold the dog, what would you do then?
2. The dog will then be taken by unfamiliar people, to an unfamiliar environment.
3. In order for the results of any assessment to be considered accurate/valid, the dog would have to stay in that environment until it is deemed to be acclimatized. A process that could take days or months. Even then, if the environment and treatment there in are not exactly as the dog has known before, validity could still be questioned. As a change in environment and handling by the humans it is now faced with, could/would undoubtedly lead to alterations in the dogs behaviour.
The only way to truely test the effects of socialization would be to run an experiment starting with groups of puppies, born and raised in identical environments, but with varying degrees of socialization.
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Location: In an English country cowpat
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,810
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26-12-2010, 10:03 PM
http://www.24dash.com/news/communiti...-killed-by-dog
Quote:
Mr Yanbolu said he complained about the dog to its owner, a man called Alex who was Ms Williams's partner.That poor dog - neither it, nor that poor woman, needed to die - it just needed a better owner and a better life. Neither of them needed to lose their lives in such a horrific manner.
He said the dog lived in a shed and was chained up all day but still managed to smash the fence.
"This has come as no surprise to us at all," he said.
"Last year our children couldn't play in the garden at all because the mastiff damaged a big chunk of fence crashing through. It was kept chained up through all winds and weathers."
He said the dog managed to break free on a few occasions and another woman who lived at the house with Ms Williams was too frightened to try to tie it up. He said: "The lady who lives upstairs said she was too scared and would have to get Alex, who works in a security job, home to do it."
Reliving last night's horrific events, Mr Yanbolu said: "The police came through our garden to get access to theirs and spent time trying to get to the dog.
"We could hear them talking about the female, saying she was badly injured and there was lots of blood but they couldn't get in to secure the dog. Somehow the dog went into a different bit and the police and paramedics worked on the lady."
He said police marksmen evacuated neighbours on the other side and considered moving him and his wife as well.
"They told us to expect 10 rounds to take the dog out," said Mr Yanbolu. "But it was only four. We heard three and then 30 seconds later there was one more."
He said he felt the dog, and a smaller one which once got into his house, were badly cared for.
"There was a bad smell of dog poo in the garden," he said.
"We haven't seen Alex for a few weeks but he did walk the dog. We had to draw the line between trying to keep our children and ourselves safe and falling out with the neighbours. We considered contacting the environmental health and the RSPCA because we felt the dogs weren't being treated very well."
"The dog barked constantly. It was a really unhappy dog, it would whimper a lot. I had never really seen it aggressive, though it did damage the fence but that was just its strength. It has been difficult for us. It has shocked us but it's not a surprise."
He added that the house was previously visited by the police and the council's "local safe neighbourhood team" and that local councillor Jane McCoy had mediated between the two families.
The councillor has been unreachable so far today.
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Location: Fife, UK
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,695
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26-12-2010, 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by lozzibear 
I dont think it is fair to say it is completely the dogs fault. Yes, the dog was the one that did it, but we dont know why the dog did it. People are speculating just now about what could of caused it, we may be right or we may be wrong. We have no idea what this dog has or has not gone through, so to blame the dog 100% is ridiculous IMO. Either way, IMO there is always a reason for things like this happening, i think it is very very rare that a dog just does it. Also, the thing i saw yesterday morning said that a neighbour said the dog was kept outside.
Oh, and i agree that in this situation the dog should have been shot... i do think the whole thing is very sad, and wish that neither the woman or the dog had to die.
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Location: Fife, UK
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,695
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26-12-2010, 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by MerlinsMum
This makes interesting reading:
http://www.24dash.com/news/communiti...-killed-by-dog
Quote:
Mr Yanbolu said he complained about the dog to its owner, a man called Alex who was Ms Williams's partner.That poor dog - neither it, nor that poor woman, needed to die - it just needed a better owner and a better life. Neither of them needed to lose their lives in such a horrific manner.
He said the dog lived in a shed and was chained up all day but still managed to smash the fence.
"This has come as no surprise to us at all," he said.
"Last year our children couldn't play in the garden at all because the mastiff damaged a big chunk of fence crashing through. It was kept chained up through all winds and weathers."
He said the dog managed to break free on a few occasions and another woman who lived at the house with Ms Williams was too frightened to try to tie it up. He said: "The lady who lives upstairs said she was too scared and would have to get Alex, who works in a security job, home to do it."
Reliving last night's horrific events, Mr Yanbolu said: "The police came through our garden to get access to theirs and spent time trying to get to the dog.
"We could hear them talking about the female, saying she was badly injured and there was lots of blood but they couldn't get in to secure the dog. Somehow the dog went into a different bit and the police and paramedics worked on the lady."
He said police marksmen evacuated neighbours on the other side and considered moving him and his wife as well.
"They told us to expect 10 rounds to take the dog out," said Mr Yanbolu. "But it was only four. We heard three and then 30 seconds later there was one more."
He said he felt the dog, and a smaller one which once got into his house, were badly cared for.
"There was a bad smell of dog poo in the garden," he said.
"We haven't seen Alex for a few weeks but he did walk the dog. We had to draw the line between trying to keep our children and ourselves safe and falling out with the neighbours. We considered contacting the environmental health and the RSPCA because we felt the dogs weren't being treated very well."
"The dog barked constantly. It was a really unhappy dog, it would whimper a lot. I had never really seen it aggressive, though it did damage the fence but that was just its strength. It has been difficult for us. It has shocked us but it's not a surprise."
He added that the house was previously visited by the police and the council's "local safe neighbourhood team" and that local councillor Jane McCoy had mediated between the two families.
The councillor has been unreachable so far today.
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Location: U K
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 5,588
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26-12-2010, 11:52 PM
Originally Posted by MerlinsMum
This makes interesting reading:
http://www.24dash.com/news/communiti...-killed-by-dog
Quote:
Mr Yanbolu said he complained about the dog to its owner, a man called Alex who was Ms Williams's partner.That poor dog - neither it, nor that poor woman, needed to die - it just needed a better owner and a better life. Neither of them needed to lose their lives in such a horrific manner.
He said the dog lived in a shed and was chained up all day but still managed to smash the fence.
"This has come as no surprise to us at all," he said.
"Last year our children couldn't play in the garden at all because the mastiff damaged a big chunk of fence crashing through. It was kept chained up through all winds and weathers."
He said the dog managed to break free on a few occasions and another woman who lived at the house with Ms Williams was too frightened to try to tie it up. He said: "The lady who lives upstairs said she was too scared and would have to get Alex, who works in a security job, home to do it."
Reliving last night's horrific events, Mr Yanbolu said: "The police came through our garden to get access to theirs and spent time trying to get to the dog.
"We could hear them talking about the female, saying she was badly injured and there was lots of blood but they couldn't get in to secure the dog. Somehow the dog went into a different bit and the police and paramedics worked on the lady."
He said police marksmen evacuated neighbours on the other side and considered moving him and his wife as well.
"They told us to expect 10 rounds to take the dog out," said Mr Yanbolu. "But it was only four. We heard three and then 30 seconds later there was one more."
He said he felt the dog, and a smaller one which once got into his house, were badly cared for.
"There was a bad smell of dog poo in the garden," he said.
"We haven't seen Alex for a few weeks but he did walk the dog. We had to draw the line between trying to keep our children and ourselves safe and falling out with the neighbours. We considered contacting the environmental health and the RSPCA because we felt the dogs weren't being treated very well."
"The dog barked constantly. It was a really unhappy dog, it would whimper a lot. I had never really seen it aggressive, though it did damage the fence but that was just its strength. It has been difficult for us. It has shocked us but it's not a surprise."
He added that the house was previously visited by the police and the council's "local safe neighbourhood team" and that local councillor Jane McCoy had mediated between the two families.
The councillor has been unreachable so far today.
I agree entirely with your comment MerlinsMum, if only someone had listened in the first place the lady would still be alive
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Location: UK
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,096
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27-12-2010, 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by tazer
In that situation, I'd have shot the dog, no hesitation, but that's just me.
Its all good and well saying it should be kept alive for further study however, once you think on the practical application of such, it becomes somewhat problematic.
1. At the seen the dog must be contained securely until:
A) the victem has been delt with.
B) the dog has calmed enough to be moved.
Depending on the situation, there may not be anywhere secure enough to hold the dog, what would you do then?
2. The dog will then be taken by unfamiliar people, to an unfamiliar environment.
3. In order for the results of any assessment to be considered accurate/valid, the dog would have to stay in that environment until it is deemed to be acclimatized. A process that could take days or months. Even then, if the environment and treatment there in are not exactly as the dog has known before, validity could still be questioned. As a change in environment and handling by the humans it is now faced with, could/would undoubtedly lead to alterations in the dogs behaviour.
The only way to truely test the effects of socialization would be to run an experiment starting with groups of puppies, born and raised in identical environments, but with varying degrees of socialization.
They came up with a lot of stuff on socialisation periods, which have since been fine tuned and expanded. Even back then they were describing "dominance"and relative hierarchy position as being fluid and as learnt by repeatedly experienced outcomes between individuals, in much the same way as the recent research from Bristol did.
Although Scott and Fuller also explained that the lessons learned may. over time, be generalised to a greater or lesser extent to apply to unfamiliar individuals.
I would agree with your points about testing. There is no debate mentioned in any reports about doubt that this dog did this, it was reportedly still attacking the victim when the police arrived.
As you say, to test the dog all the circumstances would need to be the same, and, aside from the poor victim not being available for a rerun, how could that be achieved without risking very severe injury if the dog attacked again?
Some dogs behave differently when behind a barrier or when muzzled than when unmuzzled, and muzzles are not infallible, particularly with such powerful dogs.
If the dog were muzzled or separated the same conditions would not be there, although you could see if the dog still exhibited aggression under those different conditions but none of that gets away from that fact that we know, all too well, that it did behave that way, at that time, on that occasion.
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Location: Tayside
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 680
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27-12-2010, 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by Velvetboxers
This is the report I read but didnt get a quote for it - thanks MerlinsMum
I agree entirely with your comment MerlinsMum, if only someone had listened in the first place the lady would still be alive
Originally Posted by MerlinsMum
This makes interesting reading:
http://www.24dash.com/news/communiti...-killed-by-dog
Quote:
Mr Yanbolu said he complained about the dog to its owner, a man called Alex who was Ms Williams's partner.That poor dog - neither it, nor that poor woman, needed to die - it just needed a better owner and a better life. Neither of them needed to lose their lives in such a horrific manner.
He said the dog lived in a shed and was chained up all day but still managed to smash the fence.
"This has come as no surprise to us at all," he said.
"Last year our children couldn't play in the garden at all because the mastiff damaged a big chunk of fence crashing through. It was kept chained up through all winds and weathers."
He said the dog managed to break free on a few occasions and another woman who lived at the house with Ms Williams was too frightened to try to tie it up. He said: "The lady who lives upstairs said she was too scared and would have to get Alex, who works in a security job, home to do it."
Reliving last night's horrific events, Mr Yanbolu said: "The police came through our garden to get access to theirs and spent time trying to get to the dog.
"We could hear them talking about the female, saying she was badly injured and there was lots of blood but they couldn't get in to secure the dog. Somehow the dog went into a different bit and the police and paramedics worked on the lady."
He said police marksmen evacuated neighbours on the other side and considered moving him and his wife as well.
"They told us to expect 10 rounds to take the dog out," said Mr Yanbolu. "But it was only four. We heard three and then 30 seconds later there was one more."
He said he felt the dog, and a smaller one which once got into his house, were badly cared for.
"There was a bad smell of dog poo in the garden," he said.
"We haven't seen Alex for a few weeks but he did walk the dog. We had to draw the line between trying to keep our children and ourselves safe and falling out with the neighbours. We considered contacting the environmental health and the RSPCA because we felt the dogs weren't being treated very well."
"The dog barked constantly. It was a really unhappy dog, it would whimper a lot. I had never really seen it aggressive, though it did damage the fence but that was just its strength. It has been difficult for us. It has shocked us but it's not a surprise."
He added that the house was previously visited by the police and the council's "local safe neighbourhood team" and that local councillor Jane McCoy had mediated between the two families.
The councillor has been unreachable so far today.
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Location: U K
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 5,588
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27-12-2010, 01:12 AM
There were apparently previous complaints about the dog - the dog was kept chained up in a back garden, that is no life for any animal. Fair enough some dogs live outside with a shed and run, this dog didnt have that choice, it was chained and restricted in - [quote]It was kept chained up through all winds and weathers."[end quote]
I should imagine a lot of dogs would find this life mentally and physically frustrating.
It seems a shame the authorities were not able to closer examine the situation. It appears they tried mediation between neighbours if the reports I have read where fact
Its a very sad situation all round.
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Location: uk
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,283
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27-12-2010, 02:44 AM
Originally Posted by rune
I can't see what could have been found out which would prevent any future accidents of the same kind
Even if we failed to achieve a demonstrably definitive answer to why it attacked we would still have a much greater insight into the temperament of the dog involved and I think that is essential to improving our understanding.
Originally Posted by tazer
Depending on the situation, there may not be anywhere secure enough to hold the dog, what would you do then?
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Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,551
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27-12-2010, 08:03 AM
Originally Posted by johnderondon
However the degree to which this may, or may not, have been influencial in this instance will now never be known because we have (again) rushed to destroy the main piece of evidence before it could be examined.
More information might help prevent other attacks.
Often there does seem to be a pattern as to how the dogs are kept, i.e. outside or chained.... (not socialised and lonely and frustrated and maybe territorial).
Wys
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