I agree people on both sides get aggressive and thsi is a perfect example of a post where you get your point across fully without any aggression or finger pointing etc, that works for me and if anyone was going to make me look at my techniques these are the posts that would do that!

I geuss thats why you left those other forums, just dont think it makes for a good debate.

Il leave this thread now i think

I have only just read through this debate, and am too scared to make any comment for or against. Will look at other topics instead!!

Thank you Gnasher ~ I certainly don't want to alienate people, nor do I wish to launch any personal attacks on CM fans. I completely understand peoples' fascination with him & that his TV programmes make entertaining viewing. But this doesn't make him a good dog trainer or dog behaviourist!

And I will continue to try to point out what is wrong with his methods & the flawed pseudo-scientific reasoning that underpins his methods.

I'm happy to debate this in a grownup & insult-free manner with anyone .

Simple question are you a fan?

Simple answer No

Never be scared to speak your mind !

"Sticks and stones may break my bones.
But words shall never harm me".

Go for it Miller !!

Absolutely ... so am I from the other side of the fence. But always ... ALWAYS ... it descends down into the gutter on this site because us pro's are labelled as being cruel by the anti's. We are never allowed to hold our very valid opinions without being castigated for being dog electrocutors, dog kickers, dog stranglers, dog hanger-uppers, dog chokers.

I dont think anyone has said YOU do any of these things, the arguments have always been that CM does these kind of things, and even you agreed that he was out of order in the Shadow clip

Pro CM people are not dog beaters
Anti CM people are not weak treat despencers whos dogs are in control of us

In reality we prob all use pretty similar methods just for different reasons

Yes indeed, he was bang out of order in the Shadow clip. You are one of the reasonable "pros" ... but there are plenty who are not. By inference, I HAVE been accused of being cruel ... and worse ... many times on this site, as have other CM supporters. I have received not an inconsiderable number of PM's over the years from other supporters who say well said, and other such words, but go on to say that they dare not put their heads above the parapet for fear of being shot down.

This is frankly appalling.

[mod edit - discussions of banned/account closed members are not allowed]

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I think with any heated debates there are lots of PM's flying about there are far more lurkers on both sides afraid to speak out
It is a shame because people on both sides have useful things to put forward.
As I would really like to be a trainer I really want to understand what it is the pulblic are loving about him, there is no point me just stomping in and going 'he is cruel and rubbish' better to praise the good bits and offer alternatives to the bits I dont like - hmm that sounds famliar

It is a shame and we should all learn to play nicely
Thankyou for thinking I am reasonable I do try but it is easy to get worked up! But I suppose it dosent help our case for being positive trainers if we are agressive

CM has already done his shows in the USA, and is about to come here.

What if it became known, just before his appearances here, that many people had walked out on his shows in the USA?