I saw one of the programmes where he took a dog to socialise with his pack, and some of his dogs were penned separately. Before I get jumped on I`m not criticising The Bronzed One!!!!!!! It is normal practice to have groups of dogs together, with the problematic ones or antisocial ones aeparate. This is pretty common - think of hunting dogs kept in packs, or Rescues where the main ones are in a large compound with the difficult dogs in kennels - a common practice in Europe. Dogs are pack animals and are `designed` to live in a pack. The more dogs in a pack, the stronger it becomes, so if you remove the sexual tension with neutering, I can see a large pack is manageable, Personally I don`t think the individual dogs could get enough human attention in a pack of 40, however.

There is always emotion when this man is mentioned
I have said before and I will try and say again

I really believe noone on here is abusing their dogs. I think in the main lots of us use similar methods we just accredit it to different people
I dont think anyone on here used 100% the methods of one trainer, we adapt them to ourselves, our dogs and the situations we find ourselves in

To my mind there are several parts to Cesars methods

there are the 'duhh' bits that are so common sense that it makes me sad that they need mentioned at all. But it seems that there are dumb people out there who do actually need told that a dog needs exercise and training and love
As he is on the TV all the time then I guess he is able to get that word out and so in that way that is good
- I dont think there is a single dog trainer who would disagree with that at all and so I dont see that as CM training - its just common sense

He has other things that I can see different ways to train that I prefer, but that still get results and dont cause real harm to the dogs - I have nothing against them either

The bits that I see are different in a big way from the people I look up to are the Alpha rolling, the setting dogs up to fail and punishing them for it, the flooding, pinning, stringing up and force walking on a treadmill

to me as these are the bits that differ from most trainers you find these are the bits I consider to be the essence of CM's training
Coupled with the fact the man often seems to read dogs wrong and does not see fear or calming signals, to him dogs only really have 2 states, red zone or calm submissive, and of course if the dog is not in the right state it is because of your energy
he does not take in to account the dogs training - what it understands you wan
does not take into account the dogs medical history
does not take into account things that may have happend in the past - he is so sure that dogs live only in the now - so being abused, attacked or mistreated will of course be instantly forgotton
Rarley takes into account the dogs breed or drives except on a really basic level

I am in no way jelous of the man, I adore dog programmes on the TV and I wish for some good ones. I still watch him but now I watch with the sound off and try and read what is going on with the dog
I dont care if he is better looking than me or not, I dont care if he has pots of cash

I do care that many people watch his show as if he is the ONLY trainer in the world and take his word as gospel and use his flawed methods inexpertly, which at the best will confuse the dog and at the worst might even turn a dog agressive

I also care that now he has people even talking about 'red zone' dogs, dogs that people would have tried to work with in the past because they have seen dogs like that on the TV that people say they have 'tried everything' to cure - it can make people loose hope

also, supporters are always saying that his methods are saving all these dogs as the owners have tried everything and the last resort they may have to rehome or PTS
then it is a big revelation to them that they need to walk their dog!! - they have tried nothing appart from shouting, he is not the last resort, he is the ONLY thing they have tried, any of the other decent trainers out there could have helped

Sarah, you talk lots of sense, although you like him and like his show in my mind you dont use his methods, you are a far better trainer than he ever will be IMHO you understand, love and strive for a better understanding of your dogs

Thanks Pam, the tenner's in the post

Seriously though, thanks that really means a lot to me

Just a little bit about 'red zone' and what I understand about the term.

As far as I understand it the term 'red zone' means that point where a dog will not listen to anything or respond to anything and is totally fixated on one thing.

So for Bryan, I consider his red zone to be when he is barking at another dog on his lead. He can get to a point where I could do literally anything to him, but he will not stop barking at the other dog.

It doesn't have to mean a dog that is aggressive or wants to kill another dog/human being. It just means the 'point of no return'.

I don't think CM makes this clear enough in his programmes (and that is irresponsible IMO), but it is explained in his books.

Just to clarify the meaning of the red zone by the man himself.

Defining the "Red Zone"
The red zone means killing- be it another animal or a human being. It's not a dominant or a territorial thing. The intension of that dog is to assault its target until he exhausts it. Until there is no life left in it.
A red zone case wont listen to you, even if you are holding on to him. It doesn't matter if this dog is your life long companion who sleeps in the same bed as you. Once that red light goes on, it's as if you didn't exist.The dog will struggle against you, and would rater die than cease his attack. You can hit him, yell at him - he wont hear you, he's that focused. His mission to kill overpowers any pain you might inflict, and in fact, striking or screaming at a dog in the red zone will only accelerate or intensify his lethal state of mind. He's a dog with a fixation - but a deadly one. A red zone case is never something that happens overnight . That's why it is so tragically preventable.

Because I don`t `get` the way he trains, I don`t really comprehend the Red Zone thing. I do know that Daisy would become a different dog under stress - the eyes hardened, the muscles stiffened and she was insensible to intervention. Sometimes this state of arousal was rage - her particular reaction to a percieved threat-, sometimes posessiveness. Because of 18 months of training (I`m nothing if not stubborn) we`ve managed to halt the reaction. Yes, she still guards occasionally, and sometimes begrudges me taking a prized object, but she remains responsive and has become a normal GSD.
This has happened because a local trainer has shown be how to treat her (gently, firmly, persistently) and because I`ve been able to learn from brill trainers who have written books, because I`ve been able to rant and get support from forums like this and also because I know my dog. Which is what worries me about people who assume that something seen on the tele will work with their dog. Maybe it will - but it could also make things worse.

I think most people don't get it either which is why I always recommend anyone who thinks his methods are great should actually read the books and get a better understanding of what he's really talking about. I like him but accept not everyone feels the same, that's fine there a plenty of trainers around using a variety of methods enough for each of us to find one that suits both us and our dogs.

Ive seen him refer to a barking PBT as red zoning as she was barking, she was wagging her tail!!!!! She just didnt "know" how to behave.

What i really dont like is that I myself & other people i trust & admire, to get over a problem/teach a new way, make it as easy as possible for the dog to SUCCEDD in the new way , so the dog is learning by success. CM when ive watched him has made it as difficult as possible for the dog to behave in the old way, so the dog is learning by failure.

That i dont like & is not the best way for dogs to learn.

Was that Emily?

Yes, but i didnt se the Sheltie thing, I didnt realise it was trying to kill another dog? WHatever a dog is fixed on, breaking that fixation can be done exactly the same way.

I dont see that at all, he treats dogs differently, cant agree with you on that.

He has staff, you might not want to go to him, but plenty do and he has helped hundreds of dogs and owners. If his dogs dont get the attention you claim, then its testament to the help and training he has given them for them to be as well balanced and content as they appear to be!

Good one Ceasr!!