Originally Posted by
Wysiwyg
Gnasher, I think that some of the problem (or maybe a large part of it) is that you have a certain view of your dogs and certain beliefs that you hold dear.
Nothing wrong with that, until/unless it becomes an actual obstacle to their welfare.
I think what then happens, when others say that training is possible, (and you've maybe tried by yourself or with others who may not have been up to the job) is that you experience a kind of "cognitive dissonance" and really do find it hard to believe there is another way.
If I was in your situation with Ben (which I'm not, I know
) I'd train him to the best of my ability, making walks a part training exercies (which can be both fun and bonding) and then would use a long lead and harness whenever near any potential problems.
That way, he'd be pretty reliable but still safe under certain circumstances (i.e. if he showed predatory instincts) but still getting plenty of exercise and enjoyment, including off lead exercise
Wys
x
Wys, thanks for your patience and advice. It is good advice, and I am just so frustrated that I am unable to convince anybody what an intransigent problem we had with Ben. He is, admittedly, a watered down version of his father, but I will tell you a story about Hal.
Most people will have heard of Mary Rae. When Hal was about 6 months old, maybe a bit younger or older, but a youngster, Mary Rae visited our puppy training class in our local town. One of the trainers knows her, and she graced us one night with her presence and was presented with the "difficult" dogs to put them through their paces.
Hal, naturally, was one of these cases. When it came to his turn, he refused to obey her - I cannot remember now exactly what she did, it is over 13 years ago, but she tried presumably what were her tested methods, and she got nowhere. It ended up with Hal jumping up at her and pawing at her to get her to stop messing about with him. She handed him back to me with the words "Here, take him back, he is a lovely dog, I would love to have a dog like him but he would ruin my reputation!"
Now, whereas I am not a fan of Mary Rae particularly, no-one can deny she is incredibly good at what she does. Her words are telling, and very wise. If she had had a dog like Hal, he would indeed have ruined her reputation!! Ben is a watered down version of Hal, but maybe not, maybe he is just as bad, but because we learned from "the master" we are not so phased by him!! I don't know, but all I can say is I do ADORE my dogs, a soppy anthropomorphic thing to say I know, but I can't help it, I have always said I will never make a good dog trainer because I am too soft. OH is much better than me because he is more consistent, far less soppy but doesn't have the attraction for dogs that I do - dogs make a bee line for me, probably because they sense a soft touch when they see one!! I would do ANYTHING to be able to keep Ben living with us, happy and healthy and be able to be let off lead safely. I do not want to have to keep him on the lead just in case he takes it into his head to run across a field to see what is on the other side. He is incredibly nosy, he has to investigate everything and anything, and it is this wild side to his nature that needs to be not broken or tamed, but gentled, so that when we really NEED him to come to us, because for instance we have noticed that there are sheep in the next field to where we are walking, that he comes to us.
Now, to achieve this we have tried everything over the past few months, or at least OH has. During the 4 hours or so that he spends each day walking the dogs, of course he has tried everything to teach Ben a reasonable level of recall, from using titbits, to positive rewards, to calling on various behavourists and trainers for help and advice, talking to various local farmers, gamekeepers, gundog trainers, to try and find something that would work. I am sorry that he cannot spend any more time than he is. He really should of course in an ideal world take Ben out on his own after each walk, leaving Tai and Gucci behind, for an hour a day of training, but we have 2 problems with that. Tai is top dog, so would be less than pleased with Ben when he returned, and also Tai would destroy the conservatory if he were left on his own like that, even with Gucci present. This e collar was the only solution that we could think of. We had run out of time, we are now heavily into lambing round here, nuff said.
I wish I didn't have to go to work every day, because of course I could take Ben out on his own after each walk, leaving Tai and Gucci with OH, which would not cause a problem. It took quite a long time for the two big dogs to sort out who was boss, and if Mike were to spend any more time with Ben than Tai, there would be trouble with a capital T - for Ben!
I hope I have tried at least to help people understand why we had to try something that does not sit comfortably with us, but was a last resort.