Minty i entirely agree!

when you have a dog from a young pup, alot of what you put in you get out. this is why i think some individuals say in the bad spots in this city have such bad dogs (ie, they are rearing up on their hind legs to get to another dog/child/anything that moves) (not just staffs mind you, but the majority seem to want this breed). This aggression isnt always 'bred' in is it? It can appear from wonderful specimen parents, but if the young dog is locked away unsocailsed/beaten it can grow into aggressive. I honeslty believe gameness is something a dog is born with...from 7 weeks old my little JR was playing with my pet rats...at about 3/4 months he had enough playing and i started to see the 'gameness' appear in his eyes and he began to be very interested in the rats pawing and mouthing, i cant explain it, but going from ignoring them (they ran about the house freely) to being very interested in them in a matter of weeks. eventually i had to put them up high as i knew he would kill them if he could. this pritty much proved to be i couldnt stop a russell being a russell, but i am sure it could be bred out. unfortuantly this is connected to their fearlessness and their cheek habits of always cetting into trouble. i personally love it, and would be bored with a calmer dog (like a golden etc ..no offence to golden lovers!) but it does worry me that he switches off when in pursuit of 'game'.

House dog, i think you prob right, i also see many grey/sight hounds round here wearing muzzles, as they cant be trusted with smaller dogs (ie most dogs other than themselves). Again, this could be put down to gameness couldnt it...the breed are bred to chase what they consider 'game'.

Minty, I read Jess's post to say that the GSD started the fight and the JRT defended itself. If the JRT wasn't "game" to defend itself it could have been ripped to shreds, I've see that happen so many times . My Olive being couragous or "game" has actually stopped fights, she has been attacked so many times be bigger, stronger dogs , had she rolled over and submitted she could have been killed, however, she stood her ground, non aggressively may I add, and the dogs, up until now, have backed down and retreated. These dogs that attacked her were aggressive, but in my opinion not "game". Two aggressive Golden Retreivers, could cause far more harm and be far harder to handle than two "game" terriers.

Oh Jess, I would love to own rats, but I know it is a definate no-no with the lovely Olive on the scene

lol - i am laughing a the thought of two aggressive goldens.... its very hard to imagine, i have only ever met big slobbery over friendly ones!
I also disagree where one person stated that you can only test 'gameness' in a ring. perhaps 'gameness' in the fighting sense, but i am pritty confident my cocky little russell is more 'game' than most everyday dogs (again, not something i am proud of), but i dont know how you would test this... how do i explain... i know that mine are obeidence trained, and will come back when called. the fact that i am shut out when a chase is underway, proves to me his determination. I couldnt compare this to another JRT as i could not be confident that he woudl come back anyway - does that make sense? as for sticking little prinz in a ring, i am pritty sure he would fight if he had to for his life, but he wouldnt initiate it. perhaps that is the really difference, a dog that WANTS to fight, and a dog that naturally would try to avoid a fight - most dogs dont want to.
p.s. the staff that i have currently, poppy, will chase, but will stop and return as will my others, when i shout after them. she is also submissive to some dogs, but grumpy (growls) on the lead if a strange dog approaches (i put it down to jealousy). i dont think she is 'game' at all.

p.s. rats were cool, but over-rated compared to a dog. To me they were a subsitute for a dog, i was only a renting student at the time, and even then the landlord didnt know about them..shhh...i think he is still scratching his head about the nibbled carpet corners- teehee) They are clever, and come to their names, but they wouldnt sit, stay or rollover!!!

poor landlord.

I think you've nailed it explaining gameness in the working terrier - it's a "closed ears" thing, nothing else matters when there is a job to be done, but they love you more than life at all other times . I have no expereince of pits or staffies, so can't really comment in regards to gameness in these breeds.

Talking about goldens, there is one wild Golden on our walk, he is one visious, seriously nasty dog. Being a Golden you just don't expect it, but I think the wee soul has had a bad history

Staffs and pits are also terriers so my understanding of the word game was the same as the descriptions of other working terriers "gameness"

Kirsty, that what I would have thought too.

gees, i completly forgot, of course the stafford bull TERRIER.

Ok, so do you think that if normal terriers (no offence, i mean those not ever bred specifically for fighting) were to be brought up in a ring, that they would turn to WANTING to fight, or would that have to be bred and bred until they had that WANT. we already know that they are 'game', ie have the determination and stamina, but could any JRT be raised to fight.

Now i mean 'raised' from a young pup... i dont expect so...i think it would have to be bred in to them...?

hopefully you can see my point with this question.... JRTS are not staffs or pitbulls, and not bred for fighting, yet they unquestionably have the 'gameness'

so this means there is another factor contributing to the bull breeds wanting to fight, like someone mentioned before, they fight in an eery silence, unlike normal dog on dog fighting. so what is it in these breeds that leads them to be able to fight like this... i think it needs another word, not just 'gameness'... does anyone else understand me?

do I think JRT's could be raised to fight? OH YES!! The dogs and I have met some scary JRT's
I wouldn't know about this "eerie silence" as my dogs do not fight and are not dog aggressive, but when they play fight I wish it was with "eerie silence" as it is very noisy