Was this meant to be on the John Terry thread?

Not realy cava14una - I was referring to CM. I was a bit obscure there - I was meaning that CM may be regarded as one of the best dog trainers by some but like other "Captains" frequently in the public spotlight; namely John Terry, he is not untouchable. What I was referring to was that CM also should have his "Captain's stripes of the dog training world taken away for a while, be fined and go back a bit in status until he learns to behave better. I think this is already beginning to happen to CM. [I]Sorry, I have been ill you know (Flu)

Im taking it your talking about me when you say people?
As i have said on a previous thread after viewing two clips which i had not seen before i can see cruelty yes and there is no excuse for that from anyone.
I do however see some good advise on the programme aswell, but am coming to the conclusion as someone else said on the last CM thread i was on that, why use someones techniques that are not good all the time.

So back to your point, i do agree with the parady, but as iv previously said, i dont think forcefull or aggressive posts do any good. They make people feel bad, get their backs up and result in people stickin their heels in and at times are quite frankly cyber bullying.

No Tinklady, I am not talking about you in particular but anyone who tries to stifle debate by saying people are being 'aggressive' when they are putting a point across forcefully.
If you think someone has broken the rules you are free to use the report post button.

If someone asks a question on a forum they must expect a response, if they can't cope with adult debate well perhaps forums are not the place for them .

If you suggest someone watches CM because there is 'some good advice' but the rest is harmful to dogs (and this is agreed upon by all the main canine welfare organisations see here http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=119971 )how are people who are not very 'dog aware' to differentiate between the good and the harmful?

I agree.

The CM threads to tend to get heated
I have noticed that seems to be because people take it personal.
Someone says they think something they see with CM is cruel, a person who says they use CM's methods thinks they are being called cruel along with CM
Most people here dont use the methods I despise with CM so my comments are based purely on CM, I think he is cruel, I think some of his advice is dangerous
I get v stressed that people can watch some of these clips and not see anything wrong

I think in some ways we get so used to some levels of cruelty that we dont even notice it
I am on another forum where people are talking about the benifits of the leash 'pop' how it gets dogs used to the fact that life has consiquences!! They even think they are positive trainers but dont see a problem with yanking at a dogs neck to cover up the failings in their training

I know what you are saying, but i know personally i have actually been called cruel and had some really nasty posts put up about me, to the point where i just wanted to get out of there and leave dogsey.
I have seen other posts on dogsey like that and i just dont get it, i dont get the need for it and all i keep reading is people dont want to join in CM threads because of that and people are leaving.
I just dont think that makes for a good community.

I do know what you are saying
I have left forums because I am often the only one who dosent like CM and I am accused of having a dog who is let walk all over me
On most forums people seem to think you cant have a well balanced dog if you dont use CM cos he is the ONLY trainer in the whole world

I dont think any of his fans on here are cruel, but I will always say I think SOME of his methods ARE cruel

I do know how it can feel like you are being bullied on a forum because there is no tone of voice in posts so you can give someone an angry voice that they never had when they were typing

I'm new to this forum but unfortunately not new to the CM debates in other forums!

I agree with an earlier poster that said that most dog professionals (behaviourists, veterinary societies, humane societies etc) completely disagree with his methods. The American Veterinary Society, APBC & UK veterinary society (along with others) have made very clear public statements about the harm that his abusive methods can cause dogs. And I believe that the Italian Veterinary society has tried (& succeeded?) to ban his live shows in Italy. Not only that, but how dangerous his methods can be when used by the general dog-owning public. All of his programmes have the disclaimer "don't try this at home" for the very reason that if tried by "amateur" dog owners, they could find themselves bitten or attacked by their dog.

This is apart from the harm, both mental & physical, that his methods inflict on dogs.

I don't deny that CM can come across as likeable, believable, charismatic & knowledgeable & his TV programmes can be highly-entertaining for the dog-owning public. But this does not make him a qualified canine behaviourist & it does not make his methods anything other than cruel, bullying & abusive to dogs.

But all that aside, what is really annoying is that his methods have absolutely no scientific basis behind them. CM clearly has no knowledge of learning theory, knows zilch about ethology & even less about canine physiology.

I expect all of these points have been made before & whatever is said here probably won't change the minds of those people who seem to think that the only relationship you can have with a dog is to be the "leader of the pack". It's such a shame that owners have been lead to believe that you have to "dominate" a dog before you can start to teach it right from wrong & that punishment & negative reinforcement are the only ways to deal with dogs.

I'm so glad that there are plenty of people on this forum who are happy to speak out against the methods used by CM & his ilk.

Although I don't share your views - being a bit of fan of CM's methods - I applaud your post. You are expressing your view in a logical, well-presented manner without being too damning of us supporters!!