register for free
View our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
View Poll Results: Poll - Do you agree you should be alpha male over your dog?
Yes 70 39.33%
No 71 39.89%
Other, please specify 37 20.79%
Voters: 178. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



Reply
Page 12 of 92 « First < 2 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 22 62 > Last »
Pidge
Dogsey Veteran
Pidge is offline  
Location: Wiltshire, UK
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,374
Female 
 
18-04-2009, 09:04 AM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
Glad you have found that Pidge I keep suggesting new puppy owners get a copy of their 'Puppy Survival guide', I think they are very good trainers and the advice given by them is in an easy to understand form for new dog owners.
Mini, I've actually decided to start campaigning for this to be included in all puppy school hand outs. I am 100% convinced that had I been aware of it at the start (sorry Ramble, I should have listened to you!!) I wouldn't be in the position I'm in now.

Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
I`m just reading the Dog Aggression Workbook by James O`Heare. He says at the start of the book... (I`ve paraphrased)..
I suggest you forget Dominance theory. It suggests the relationship is adversarial, with both parties in competition. This will distract you from the vastly more straightforward approach of identifying the problem behaviour and the events or things controlling it.
This to me makes practical sense. If there`s a problem, find a way to solve it. Not take it as a personal challenge from the dog.
Absolutely brilliant and a really great way to look at things. Positive and proactive. Thanks for that.

Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
What a complete load of rubbish. Dogs aren't robots they are living beings and may well be in pain or having a bad day and you are saying that they aren't allowed to show us that emotion. They can't verbally tell us what's up so they show it in the only way they can.
If you believe that a dog should not react ever in any way in any circumstance then you shouldn't have a dog!
Becky
Agree!!

Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Sorry Mahooli, I didn't mean to give that impression !! My dogs are not robots, they are allowed to be dogs !!

But to snap or bite? No, never ! Actually, I tell a lie, I have just remembered once when Hal air snapped at hubby when he was on his chain outside on our drive with a particularly tasty bone. It was getting dark and he had to come in, minus the bone. He growled at my husband, Mike whopped him on the muzzle (I know, not good, and I told him off for it and told him that frankly he deserved to get bitten), and Hal air-snapped. His bone was still removed, and he was brought inside grumbling and growling and protesting, rather understandably I feel. But that snap was naughty with a capital N, and should never be condoned or excused. He never did it again.

No dog should EVER snap or bite the hand that feeds him. If he does, then this must be dealt with in whatever method one chooses to use. If a dog will snap or bite at the hand that feeds him, then as sure as night follows day he is capable of snapping or biting at a child ... and we all know where that can lead.
Yikes. That's exactly the kind of dog owner behaviour that frightens me.

Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
Whilst you should be able to remove things from your dog I do find it odd that people do for no reason other than 'because I can'. I doubt many of us would not react if someone kept taking our food away from us or taking the remote control to the telly or taking our car or anything else we value highly.
Put yourself in their shoes if you wouldn't like it done to you then why constantly do it to your dog?
Becky
Agree. We did it because we thought we had to. How wrong we were!! ;o)

Originally Posted by Lottie View Post
*Sigh* I'm sorry... I thought this was a poll based on what alpha is generally seen as...

I do none of the common so called 'techniques' to assert myself as alpha.

AND I'm a 'dog owner' - I personally don't like to be called the 'alpha male' because a) I'm not a dog, and b) I'm female
Quite right. The post is about your thoughts on your position within yours and your pets home environment and you've answered it perfectly.

Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
With the greatest of respect Lottie, you didn't say air snapping, you said snapping. In my vocab a snap is a bite, or as near as makes no difference.

I don't know you, or your dogs, most us on Dogsey don't know each other or our dogs, but we make judgements from what we are told. And I am trying to point out to you that it is not at all acceptable for your dogs, my dogs, or anyone else's dogs to snap at you, me or anyone !

In today's anti dog society, I feel our dogs have to be squeaky clean ! I was just very worried that you might one day find yourself in a situation where one of your pooches had snapped at - whether it be the air, or actual flesh - a third party. You could end up losing your dog, which is dreadful. You have gone on to elaborate, and it sounds like you are doing really well, so I am sorry if I was judgemental, but the way you presented the situation was to me very worriesome. I'm a lot happier now !
Huh? How can a snap mean bite whent he word for bite is, erm, bite. It's pretty clear cut to me what she meant I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by ajshep1984 View Post
There is no "alpha" in a wild wolf pack: http://www.4pawsu.com/alphawolf.pdf
Agree 100%. Good point and one I really think would help people if they understood.
Reply With Quote
youngstevie
Dogsey Veteran
youngstevie is offline  
Location: Birmingham UK
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 20,832
Female 
 
18-04-2009, 09:14 AM
Ok don't shoot me but i voted other.

I don't see me as Alpha, but then I don't live as a dog.

I see me as more guide, I protect them and perhaps go first into things to show them it's ok/trust/you can follow etc.,

But I do have boundries which they respect, but then i respect thier boundries too.

OK not making any sense i know.....I'll go now BYE
Reply With Quote
Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Gnasher is offline  
Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
18-04-2009, 09:32 AM
Originally Posted by Lottie View Post
Oh well I'm glad someone is...

In the future perhaps you could ask for an elaboration before jumping down peoples' throats (and in return I will work on being more careful about how I put things). Then you may prevent yourself from risking the emotions of others who are trying damn hard with their dogs (dogs, who by the way, have made the biggest impact imaginable) and getting criticism from people for being too harsh, too soft, worrying too much or not worrying enough!

I will never get it right by everyone so I have decided to stick to what I want, what I believe and stuff anyone wishes to make harsh judgements without finding out the facts first... doesn't mean it doesn't bother me though.
Point taken Lottie. Perhaps you would like to pass on your comments to some other posters here on Dogsey who do just what you have described ... frequently and monotonously (spelling?)

Sorry if I upset you
Reply With Quote
Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Gnasher is offline  
Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
18-04-2009, 09:41 AM
This is getting silly. The difference between a snap and a bite is this. A dog can snap at your hand ... and may or may not make contact. If he makes contact, then this would be called a bite. A dog could make the conscious decision to bite ... ie you are holding on to his collar, and he turns his mouth towards your hand and sinks in his teeth. The difference, in my mind, between a snap and a bite is speed therefore. A snap is either an "air" snap, or a snap that makes contact. A bite could be a slow, leisurely build up to a sinking in of the teeth.

Either way, it is unacceptable, especially in today's anti dog climate. What are you going to say to the mother of the toddler who your dog has just snapped at (but not bitten)? O sorry your little girl is so upset, the dog was only air snapping !

Get real folks - this is the litigious 21st century we live in ! I only hope all you guys who think it's OK for your dogs to go round snapping have got plenty of insurance ... you'll need it.
Reply With Quote
Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Gnasher is offline  
Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
18-04-2009, 09:44 AM
Pidge: you said :

"Yikes. That's exactly the kind of dog owner behaviour that frightens me."

I agree. I have already said this was my husband's poor handling skills, not mine. I hope you weren't thinking I was responsible !

He knows better now. It is the one and only mistake he ever made with Hal, who being the well balanced dog that he was, did not bear a grudge.
Reply With Quote
Pidge
Dogsey Veteran
Pidge is offline  
Location: Wiltshire, UK
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,374
Female 
 
18-04-2009, 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Pidge: you said :

"Yikes. That's exactly the kind of dog owner behaviour that frightens me."

I agree. I have already said this was my husband's poor handling skills, not mine. I hope you weren't thinking I was responsible !

He knows better now. It is the one and only mistake he ever made with Hal, who being the well balanced dog that he was, did not bear a grudge.
Hey

No, I'm not really pointing the blame at either of you as we all make mistakes (don't I just know it). It was more of a passing comment.

I do worry about your view of being ''alpha'' though, but again, it is your view and your wish to play that role and who am I to judge ;o)
Reply With Quote
magpye
Dogsey Veteran
magpye is offline  
Location: Essex UK
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,424
Female 
 
18-04-2009, 09:58 AM
I think most of us here are basically trying to say the same thing (great thread idea pidge really opened some good discussion).

Reading through all the posts, it seems to me we're all basically saying 'sort of... ish' but can't get the terminology quite right. Everything has difficult connotations that can be taken wrong, or used too literally or out of context... We know what our relationship is between us and our dogs and it seems to me that with only a couple of exceptions it's the same relationship being described here... One of rules and boundaries, but tempered by mutual respect and love.

I think I said 'Boss' at first.. but then I suppose that does assume more dictatorial attitude than I mean.

Alpha male clearly is far too muddy a term... involving connotations of masculinity and wolf that frankly is uncomfortable.

'Mummy' Sort of fits when you think of the role of Mummy in the household, excellently described here, and in that context I agree.. But to say I am their Mummy normally would make me worried people thought I was over soppy and about to dye them pink and push them in prams (not literally, but you know what I mean, I hope). Also no good for the male dog owners out there...

Pack leader - too cesar milan, too wild dog theory based.

Leader - Closer maybe.. but still misses out on some of the emotional and mutual elements perhaps? Also can let some people think that the dogs should be able to somehow just intuitively follow with no input on the 'leader's' part.

Friend - Possibly assumes too much equality... Certainly would be taken wrong by many.

Teacher or mentor - may be a closer role? "I am my dog's mentor". Just trying that one on for size... hmmm... not bad.

Maybe what we need here is a new word. A word that means leader and Mummy and mentor and friend and Boss...?
Reply With Quote
Gnasher
Dogsey Veteran
Gnasher is offline  
Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
Female 
 
18-04-2009, 10:00 AM
Exactly Pidge, thank you. I am indeed "alpha" for want of a better word, although I think I prefer to use "boss" as the alpha word seems to kick off so much negativity.

I really would love you to meet Tai. You will see that despite my cruel opinions he adores me, and my husband. He is everything I could ever want in a dog (apart from my beloved Hal back again, but Tai doesn't know that !). He is obedient, but no sycophant, he is brilliant with children, pets (both in our house, and other houses), he is extremely loving, loyal, intelligent, the list is endless ! He is challenging, his prey drive is very high being a mal/husky mix, so we have to be very vigilant, but he is a pleasure to have.

When we first had him, it wasn't so. He was very stressy because he had been left Home Alone for long periods each day. He was obedient, his recall was good, but he had no basic manners. He barged through doors, gates, down the stairs, tried to bowl you over to get his food, was "in your face" and a git. Within 24 hours of demonstrating in a calm, assertive way that this behaviour would not be tolerated, he was 50% better. Within a week, the dog was transformed. He was rudderless before, not cruelly treated at all, his owner adores him, but he needed a Boss, and we have provided the leadership that he wants.

I hope I've explained this well, I probably haven't, but believe me, if you met my dog you would exclaim what a calm, happy chappy he is !
Reply With Quote
maxine
Dogsey Veteran
maxine is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,411
Female 
 
18-04-2009, 10:16 AM
I voted "other" because "Mummy" best describes my relationship with the dogs. Someone used that term earlier in this thread and as I was reading it I was thinking "Yes! That's us!"
Reply With Quote
Louise13
Dogsey Veteran
Louise13 is offline  
Location: Nr Edinburgh
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,350
Female 
 
18-04-2009, 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Ouch! LOL I did read it, but I interpret it very differently to you.



Lottie actually said:

"I am their guide and their educator and I protect them and yes, I guess I am the authority figure in their life "

Human parents do that. Cheetah parents do it. Giraffe parents do it. Parrot parents do it. But I'd not say any of those were alphas....would you?

The link given by ajshep1984 is seminal reading.
Mech based his work originally on Schenkel and that is where so much of the original, wrong, information about alphas came from. There is hardly a need for anyone to argue against Mech as he was one of the orignators of the idea in the first place...



Wys
x
Thats my point..I see alpha as all of those so yes I would..I see alpha as the boss..Alpha wolves are the boss, they educate they protect..so they do all of that too,,Whether you want to call it the boss, the alpha, the provider, Mummy..whatever it all means the same to me..

I lead my dogs, the follow (most of the time) with no need for dominance or any form of force..I would rather my dogs respect me than fear me..BUT I do beleive that MY dogs and dogs of similar breeds live in a pack..I don't have to do a "Shaun Ellis" and eat their dinner with them for them to KNOW I am their boss..they just know..For anyone who says that dogs don't live in a pack structure they need to get themselves into a house where there lives a pack of Mals or Sibes..and live and watch them for a few weeks..They may well indeed rethink the whole thing..

I am not arguing with anyone about anything..this is my opinion..right or wrong its what I beleive..

When you see wolves in the wild it is clear there is a pack structure..and dogs living in a similar structure have their pack work along similar lines..(obviously without the need for the hunt etc)..
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 12 of 92 « First < 2 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 22 62 > Last »


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 


© Copyright 2016, Dogsey   Contact Us - Dogsey - Top Contact us | Archive | Privacy | Terms of use | Top