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Location: Yorkshire, UK
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,890
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20-07-2009, 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher 
I've kept out of this particular CM thread, but I have to dive in at this point ... in a semi-defence of Cesar. He does NOT use prong collars, check chains or electric collars as a matter of routine. What he does do ... wrongly IMO ... is to say that if one of his human clients are using, for instance, a check chain (I personally HATE them), then he will not wade in and say "you must not use such a device". Why he follows this trend, I don't know. It would be far better if he said "chuck that foul contraption in the bloody bin, I will teach you how to get your dog to walk to heel without a painful item of torture".
As far as the Illusion collar goes, I agree with what you have said, but it is not fair to say that CM advocates the use of chokes, prongs and electric collars ... that is a gross exaggeration of the truth. His methods work absolutely fine without the use of ANY gadgets - even a simple lead. My boy will walk to heel without ANY constraining device whatsoever, my only tool being my voice and calm, assertive energy ... even walking past loose chickens, a good test IMO of any dog's obedience.
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Location: Northern USA
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,847
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21-07-2009, 12:29 AM
I do agree with some of what he says. Calm and assertive, leadership, pack behavior, etc. However, a leader isn't a drill sargent, but more like an old fashioned strict, but loving parent. To me, what he seems to say sounds good, but what he does is wrong.
Success? In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king. One of the best people I ever knew on a dog forum used to say a book, any book was better than none at all.
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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21-07-2009, 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by mse2ponder
Haha - you should be the improved CM! I have to disagree though - the owners of the poodle (called Teddy I believe) that wanted to chase cars didn't have a prong on at first. CM put it on. Also, the scared coonhound. Can't find either of those videos anywhere - not even on the national geographic site - I wonder if he's removed them? It doesn't say much about him if, as a trainer, he can't advise novice owners about a using a lead.
I thought I had watched most if not all of the episodes on Freeview, but I don't remember that one. I don't like "gadgets" of any sort ... I very rarely even take a lead with me out on walks, unless I am going near a road or livestock. Tai will be just as obedient off a lead, as he is on, so I only need one as an extra precaution near or on roads, or around livestock.
To be fair to CM, he does not claim to be a dog trainer ... he rehabilitates dogs and trains their owners. Rightly or wrongly, and we have had many discussions about this on Dogsey, he does not get involved with the basics of dog training, although I have seen him many times showing owners how to use a simple lead.
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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21-07-2009, 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by Labman
Why has he developed his own collar? One that holds the slip collar up where it is the most effective?
I do agree with some of what he says. Calm and assertive, leadership, pack behavior, etc. However, a leader isn't a drill sargent, but more like an old fashioned strict, but loving parent. To me, what he seems to say sounds good, but what he does is wrong.
Success? In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king. One of the best people I ever knew on a dog forum used to say a book, any book was better than none at all.
I don't know Labman. To my mind, you can achieve the same effect with a simple, gentle slip lead, or just by keeping the dog's interest in going forward. I have to admit I have never seen or used one, but I just don't like the look of the Illusion collar from what I can see on the telly.
I like most of what he does, and strongly disagree that he uses force or violence as has been suggested. The one notable exception being with that wolf cross, Shadow. He kicked the dog, pure and simple ... whether that was a mistake, or intentional, its immaterial, but it was certainly a lot more robust than his normal nudge. He got bitten, and jolly good thing too, you cannot get away with treating a wolf cross in such a manner!
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Location: Devon,UK
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 147
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22-07-2009, 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
To be fair to CM, he does not claim to be a dog trainer ... he rehabilitates dogs and trains their owners.
There's no point in helping a dog if the owners don't know how to follow it through!
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Location: dullsville
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,241
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22-07-2009, 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
To be fair to CM, he does not claim to be a dog trainer ... he rehabilitates dogs and trains their owners. Rightly or wrongly, and we have had many discussions about this on Dogsey, he does not get involved with the basics of dog training, although I have seen him many times showing owners how to use a simple lead.
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Location: london.uk
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 8,012
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22-07-2009, 07:44 PM
(i hope that comes across as i mean it
)
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Location: Poodle Heaven!
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,297
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23-07-2009, 07:08 AM
Becky
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Location: Fife Scotland
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,946
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23-07-2009, 07:20 AM
Originally Posted by Mahooli
I think this is down to what people believe to be cruel treatment of an animal or not. However, I can be pretty certain that if I was walking down the street and started stringing my dog up, pinning it to the floor or kicking it as seen on CM someone would call the RSPCA!
Becky
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Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
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23-07-2009, 07:57 AM
Originally Posted by Mahooli
I think this is down to what people believe to be cruel treatment of an animal or not. However, I can be pretty certain that if I was walking down the street and started stringing my dog up, pinning it to the floor or kicking it as seen on CM someone would call the RSPCA!
Becky
There was a study in the US in which students were told to administer electric shocks to subject, who screamed and protested. The students continued at ever increasing strengths (of current) because the `Professor` told them to, with a bit of jargon. In fact the subjects were actors, thankfully and there was no current, but the students didn`t know that.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80...ull-the-lever/
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