Of course they realise this. But why should that mean that we cannot communicate with them on this "pack mentality" level? The very fact that the symbiotic relationship between canid and homo sapiens has got to be just about one of the most important factors in the creation of Modern Man surely demonstrates the extraordinarily close relationship that they have with each other? There are some schools of thought that think this relationship between wolf and man could have first begun as long ago as 100,000 years, others that the relationship is 40,000 years, and yet more who think it is considerably less. Whichever school is correct, this relationship was forged on more than just mutual benefit ... the man getting a sentinel cum hunting aid, and the wolf getting "free" food ... there must have been a far greater and deeper level of communication and understanding between the two species, and of course there was ... telepathy, body language interpretation, a meeting of similar minds, call it what you will.

I honestly do think that Cesar has at the very least a good basic knowledge of "dog speak", for want of a better phrase. If I were asked to put my neck on the line, I would say he is pretty fluent, with a few odd slips along the way. The guy's not perfect, I don't believe he is as good as Shaun Ellis, but he's pretty good. He has made mistakes ... who hasn't?

I shall doubtless be shot down in flames for saying such a thing, but there we are, that is my belief, to which I am entitled.

I agree with the others in that this is not normal...if consented yes it would but not forced. It would be the equivalent of someone taking your hand and putting it in a strangers hand and forcing you to shake hands. Did mean the greeting? Nope. Does this make you like the strangers any more than when you met him? Nope.

gnasher i feel i get a well balanced debate with you, the reason being as you have just described. you don't think the man is perfect and you aren't rigid in your thinking.

of course you are entitled to your beliefs and thank goodness we all are.

just wanted to say that!

yes you are g,as is everyone now I might be shot down for this one.....i dont think you can compare s.e and cm,i also dont THINK s.e would adocate alot of the 'techniques' cm uses.whilst i do think he agrees with some of the 'ethos' as do alot of people but the ethos is not exclusive to c.m.imo.

Humans didn't get together with wolves.... there is no fossil record that proves that. In fact today's wolves didn't exist back then. Wolves and dogs evolved from a common ancestor, not dogs came from wolves. Of that there is at least some fossil records to prove.

As for the hunting aid and free food. That is only half correct, ancestral dogs lived off the leftovers of humans, they contributed little to the 'hunting' especially when humans started to cultivate things such as cattle and crop.

Good post, but allow me to elaborate a tad

Positive Reinforcement (R+) (Operant)

Definition: Adding a positive stimulus contingent on a behavior in order to increase the probability of that behavior happening again.

Example: A dog sits when the owner gives a cue and when the dog sits the owner gives the dog a treat.

Uses: R+ is usually used after non operant techniques such as luring in order to better reinforce the connection between action and cue.

Negative Reinforcement (R-) (Operant)

Definition: The removal of an adverse stimulus contingent on a behavior in order to increase the probability of that behavior happening again.

Example: In order to teach dumbbell retrieve some people will use a tool called an ear pinch. The pinch is placed on the dog’s ear causing some discomfort and is removed the second the dog grabs the dumbbell, this teaches the dog that he can avoid the adverse stimulus if he retrieves the dumbbell.

Uses: R- is used to teach a dog that he/she can avoid discomfort by practicing certain behaviors.

Positive Punishment (P+) (Operant)

Definition: Adding an adverse stimulus in order to decrease an unwanted behavior.

Example: A dog owners gives a quick leash correction when the dog starts to pull on the lead.

Uses: P+ is often used to teach a dog that a certain behavior is wrong and will be promptly followed by a correction, thus theoretically eliminating the behavior.

Negative Punishment (P-) (Operant)

Definition: The removal of a pleasant or reinforcing stimulus in order to decrease a behavior.

Example: A dog that seeks attention jumps on visitors and the owners when they arrive home, to decrease the behavior the owners don’t give the dog any attention.

Uses: P- is often used to extinguish problem behaviors in an effective and non confrontational manner.

Well, my training is positive then because Tai gets plenty of rewards : they are just not titbit rewards ! He is praised when he has done good with a pat on the head or a stroke and a "good boy". I never use physical force; I do not call a gentle but firm short tug on the lead "force" if he has ignored my "sshh" when walking to heel. This doesn't happen very often, but happen it does, and if he ignores the verbal command, he gets a gentle but firm tug.

I have different noises for different things. Asking him to walk to heel a bit better, I will say "sshh", as described above. "Oi" is a bit more assertive ... I will say this if he has suddenly espied that the chickens have escaped out onto the set aside across the field. I will say "ah ah" when we are biking along the canals, and he has got very interested in a family of ducklings on the water. Top of the scale is a full blown bellow of a "NO" if we suddenly realise we are biking past a field of sheep - although they are very well fenced off along the canals, there is always the potential that such a large dog can jump over the hedge or fencing. I have and do use the Cesar "bite", I don't view that as negative at all, but very positive. I will use that when we are, say, in the pub with Tai and he espies his old enemy the Black Labrador from across the room - in this particular circumstance, usually an "oi" with an accompanying warning finger is not enough and I do not like to bellow in public, so a Cesar bite will be administered. He just lays his head back down and goes to sleep. Very positive, I would call that.

and to add (probably irelevant) dogs are not dumb,it is now thought that they domesticated THEMSELVES

In the cold light of day Steven I am sure this will make sense, but I'm too tired to make sense of it right now. I shall read it at work tomorrow.

What about the 'roll' at the end when the poor dog was exhausted?