good post minty makes lots of sense

i agree pete

Can I take it that thats your best answer?

Stan

Good post and excellent summation Minty.

I find with the advocates of Game dogs that it is like a magic trick now you see it now you don't they use words like athletic, fit, etc and when you try to pin them down about the term gameness you get the magic trick again. and the statements like "it can mean many things to many people"

Fact: Gameness can only be tested in one place "A pit fight" where one dog it pitted against another until one backs off (does not come up to scratch) or dies.

Given that a game dog is bred to effectively never back off the latter is a possibility.

Can anyone please correct me if I have got that wrong?

Stan

wow, this post has made me see 'bull' owners in a different light! i thought the whole reason for wanting this type of dog was for the fact that they are 'game'.... i am impressed that some of you dont like this trait, and even want to eradicate the 'gameness'. (although unlikely to happen)

To me there would be two types of 'gameness' after all, before fighting, dogs were used to hunt 'game' and to do this requires great skill, determination and endurance.
the gameness that is talked about in the ring, i cant comment on, as i know virtually nothing about dog fighting (bar hating that anyone would want to do such a thing). H
owever 'gameness' in other dogs, esp terriers(!) certainly exists, although i dont know how eager we should be to want this.
I would describe my little jack russell x as extremly 'game'. He has been attacked (through no fault of his own) by a GSD, and bravely fought for his life where others would have turned tail (i had to pull the GSD off him). When he spots a deer/rabbit/squirrel this obeidence trained dog is off like a shot, and all other thoughts are put out the window. he knows about cars, yet will cross a busy road paying no heed if he is chasing something. This type of gamenes to me is courage and determination, with one target in mind. As i said i dont like it, my other dog will do the same, but stop when i shout. The terriers 'gameness' seems to take over and go above my command.

Jess you could be describing my Olive there. When she does something crazy like you say I always think of the breed standard that says "there is a heedless, reckless pluck about the Irish Terrier which is characteristic, and, coupled with the headlong dash, blind to all consequences....." and say to myself "you were warned and you still got one" - but I wouldn't change her for the world, it kinda what I love about her, that totally cheeky attitude that gives me a run for my money .

Gameness, Tenacity, or Courage, can in no way be linked to aggression, aggression is not a desirable trait in any breed although many breeds are used in guarding and they are encouraged to be aggressive. I believe that if any of the first 3 traits mentioned were to be removed you would end up with nervous, and shy Stafford's who like other breeds would bite out of fear. If the qualities of a Stafford do not suit you then don;t have one, because if you have an uncertain owner you will have a uncertain dog, some have this compulsion to alter breeds, if you alter the qualities of a real Stafford you will destroy the dogs soul.

Jess what you have described with your jack russel is what will eventually happen to a game bred pitdog in a pet situation someday .
Now imagine if your JR was a pit dog with another 25 pounds of muscle and the power to go with it ...the GSD would have been killed or at least badly mauled because you could not of handled that situation thats why gamebred dogs should stay only in the hands of people who know how to handle them and not as pet dogs

Hello Doglistner,
I am quite sure if there were statistics available, you would find that there are more dogs attacked or killed by Greyhounds than there ever has been by Staffords.

Very well put. I do believe that in America the APBT is in the bottom 4 of the bite list, if I remember right Cocker Spaniels and Labradors are in the top of the list.