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mishflynn
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01-03-2011, 08:25 AM
The OP is a big CM fan, & i assume they have CM'd this dog, probaley why he had a go at the hubby & wont come back.

Obvisley a dominant arsey git... right?

No prob a very scared boy in need of some understanding. I know lets lose it all, tsstg/ jabbng /nudging hasnt worked ,
also tryed ALL other methods,
lets E shock the dog too
mishflynn
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01-03-2011, 08:28 AM
i dont think hes chased sheep ?
OP just lives near sheep.

I canyt express how much im saddened & dissapointed by this thread. & Gnasher.
So so so sad & dissapointed.
Wysiwyg
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01-03-2011, 08:44 AM
Originally Posted by mishflynn View Post
i dont think hes chased sheep ?
OP just lives near sheep.

....
Yeah, I think it's just rather worrying because there are sheep fields around and so on, so Ben is bound to come across them at some stage (would presume?).

Wys
x
mishflynn
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01-03-2011, 09:05 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Yeah, I think it's just rather worrying because there are sheep fields around and so on, so Ben is bound to come across them at some stage (would presume?).

Wys
x

But the Ecollar is Off now, & dog is only ecollared trained to recall.........so who knows if sheep will be a bigger pull than a open field????
Better put it back on

Or on a lead!
ClaireandDaisy
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01-03-2011, 09:08 AM
Originally Posted by Shona View Post
I would think the best thing you could do for the poor wee fella is to attempt to find someone with the ability and knowledge to deal with him,


Excellent advice.
Louise13
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01-03-2011, 09:28 AM
I like how the "sheep field" keeps getting mentioned..except its an empty "sheep field"..Umm that makes it JUST a "field" then..
Jackie
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01-03-2011, 09:32 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
After over 40 years of owning dogs, I have learned to never say “never” and to always keep an open mind.

We rescued Ben, son of our previous dog Hal, about 6 months ago. To start with, all was not too bad, the two males, Ben and Tai, seemed to bond well etc. etc.

However, things took an extremely bad turn for the worse. Ben went for my husband, did not bite him, but it was serious. It was due to Ben having had a very bad first 3 years of life where clearly he had not only been kept on a running line in the back garden, but had been beaten, kicked or struck in some way, following someone grabbing his collar and then hurting him. OH took hold of his collar too robustly, and Ben went for him. In addition to this, he and Tai were having terrible fights, serious fights where Tai always got injured. On top of this, Ben started to run off, having previously been pretty obedient off lead. He never ran away, just ran off. Over the last 6 or so months, we have tried everything. We have consulted several dog trainers and behaviourists in the area and beyond, and we have explored every single training technique, knowing they would not work, but still desperate to give them a go and succeed. We were staring failure in the face – Ben was going to have to be kept on the lead the whole time, a fate that I am afraid I would not inflict on any dog, certainly a dog who had been confined to a running line in the back garden for 3 years.

One of the trainers suggested an e-collar. I was dead against it, nobody was going to electrocute MY dog, I would not have done to my dog what I would not like done to myself, etc. etc. However, my husband was adamant, he has done a lot of research and reading up and talked to several people who had used an e collar successfully to train their dogs not to chase sheep – we live in serious sheep country here in Northamptonshire – and as he is the one who does the exercising during the week and the general dog care, and has to go searching for Ben every day when he runs off, I really was not in a position to do much about it. He borrowed an e collar with full instructions and a video and to demonstrate to me how safe the device was, he strapped it round his arm and told me to put the collar through its paces. I used the pager device, which is just a vibration then I used the “stim”, set to the lowest setting. I was very very uncomfortable doing this, as I am terrified of electricity, but he told me to keep doing it until we got to the higher levels, when he shrieked and jumped! I dropped the controller unit and burst into tears, I was so upset, and told him never ever ever to use it on Ben, except on the vibrate. He explained to me that he was just winding me up – he has a very black sense of humour – and it hadn’t hurt at all, it was static electricity not current, just like you get when you touch a metal filing cabinet or your car, but I wasn’t convinced. I was extremely concerned, but even I could see we had no choice, unless we were to keep Ben on the lead the whole time, which is just not an option.

So, last Wednesday, Ben wore the collar. As was his wont, the git ran away into the sheep field (currently empty of sheep) on the edge of the wood. OH did his usual thing of calling, whistling, following him with Tai as fast as he could run, but Ben took no notice whatsoever, so he used the vibrate on low. Nothing. He turned it up to the maximum rumble, absolutely nothing, Ben kept on running. He had the stim set to the very lowest, and so pressed the stim button, nothing. He gradually turned up the level and pressed the button (not continuously, just a split second nip), still nothing. He went higher to 30, 50, and at 50 Ben merely shook his head but kept on running. OH went all the way to the maximum, when eventually Ben screeched to a halt, looked at the dot in the far distance behind which was OH trying to catch up with him, and came galloping back to him! He had massive praise, his Fish 4 Dogs treat, and Mike turned round and walked back out of the field into the wood, and the walk proceeded. Ben carried on doing his thing, until they reached a patch of ground the other side of the wood where Ben always runs off. This day was no different. Mike went through the routine of pager, nothing. Stim on low setting, nothing, until he got up to about 80, when Ben yelped and came galloping back to massive hugs and rewards.

He has not run away at all since that day last Wednesday. He is still the same old Ben, still arsey, still grumbles if you try to make him do something he does not want to do, still bounds joyfully round the woods, greeting friends old and new, he is exactly the same dog … except he now comes when he is called.

On Saturday, we took Ben, me and OH and Tai, back to these same woods. The dog did not put a foot wrong. He was actually a bit quiet, and I was very worried that he was traumatised, psychologically damaged, and gave OH a hard time. The next day, Sunday, we went to Harlestone Firs on the edge of Northampton, and there was Ben roaring around having a whale of a time, greeting all and sundry, but every time I whistled “Ben! Come!” he would come running back to me, skidding to a halt in his haste to be obedient and get his praise and his Fish 4 Dogs.

And don’t think it is the treats – treats alone meant nothing, he loves his treats, but he loved being a hobo more. Now, thanks to the e collar he has the best of both worlds. I frankly cannot see anything wrong in this, we had an extreme situation, a situation which would have taken YEARS to train the dog out of, during which time he would most likely have been shot by a sheep farmer or got run over. He’s the same old Ben, arsey, naughty, playful, greedy, disobedient … but he COMES when he is called. Not always the perfect recall that you will get from a high obedience dog, but a nice recall which is more than good enough for me!

I will probably get castigated for this, but I am not ashamed of what my hubby has done - I wanted to present the "other side" of the e collar debate. There are very exceptional circumstances IMO when it can be justified.

I am shocked, I really am, and disappointed too.


Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
None of you are saying anything I have not said to myself, about myself.

I just wish you could see my beloved Ben ... a happy, contented dog. Hardly one traumatised by his experience. I am sad that you are all so close-minded. You have no idea of what the last 6 months or so have been like, so don't be so quick to judge, I am not stating on a public forum what we have gone through, I don't want medals or brownie points, I am merely trying to show that in EXTREME - very extreme - cases, an e collar may be justified.

You just cannot believe the change in the dog, not just his recall. But if you want to be closed minded, then fine, but a person who truly understands dogs should be prepared to try anything to help.
Have the fights stopped too, between him and Tai, poor Tai having to put up with injury from a dog you bring into your home.. what about your loyalty to him, are you using the e.collar for Bens aggression to Tai as well.

Poor dogs both of them, one being attacked and let down by his owner, the other after having a miserable life is subjected to an e .collar because you have not got the knowledge to help him.

I am sorry, but I am so tottaly shocked by your thread, I have always taken much of what you say with a pinch of salt, but this is beyond belief!!
Jackie
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01-03-2011, 09:34 AM
Originally Posted by Shona
I would think the best thing you could do for the poor wee fella is to attempt to find someone with the ability and knowledge to deal with him,
Or have him PTS, to save him from any more "well meaning owners"
wilbar
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01-03-2011, 09:47 AM
Eventually caught up with this thread & must admit I'm very sad to hear what's been done to Ben.

I don't know much about Gnasher ~ only that she's seems very much into "dogs are wolves" sort of thing. I didn't realise that she (& I assume her husband?) are big CM fans too.

There's lots been posted that seem "odd" to me & doesn't really ring true.
  • Why have they got this breed of dog when clearly they want the dogs to be able to run free but seem to live in a totally unsuitable environment?
  • Why on earth did they breed from a dog with a known "dodgy" temperament?
  • How come that one of the litter, Ben, ended up being imprisoned & treated so cruelly? Why on earth was Ben rehomed to this cruel person? Did no-one do any homework & ensure that the puppies went to suitable homes & the new owners were capable of providing for the dog's needs? And why on earth has it take 3 years to get him back?
  • Having now got Ben back from the awful life he's lead for 3 years, & hugely formative years at that, why would anyone expect his problems to then be sorted out in 6 months?
  • If a dog has been restrained on a line for 3 years (presumably attached to collar?), it's not really surprising that the dog would have issues about the collar being grabbed ~ so why did Gnasher's husband grab the collar & why was it such a shock that Ben went for him?
  • Why are the methods tried so far & the things that Gnasher & her husband have been through with Ben so secret? Why not put them on an open forum? People here are very happy to offer advice, support & understanding.

My other thoughts & doubts are whether Gnasher & her husband's views on dogs are coloured by their views on "dogs as wolves" & their views on CM? I have a horrible feeling that this could lead to misreading dog behaviour & body language, or misinterpreting it. Whilst Gnasher tells us that Ben is now a happy dog, able to run free, & joyously return to her, & that he only yelped once when the e-collar was on maximum ~ it seems to me that, with the best will in the world, this is open to misinterpretation. And if that is the case, then using an e-collar could be extremely dangerous. I agree that the other dogs Ben lives with or mixes with & has already show aggression towards, could well be in severe danger now

Having said all that I very much admire Gnasher's bravery in admitting using an e-collar & posting it on Dogsey!
Kerryowner
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01-03-2011, 10:01 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I DON'T!! I don't want perfection!! I hate perfection!! I love a dog who is a challenge. Ben's father, Hal, had a less than perfect recall, he would take his time to meander back, I loved that, but Ben is in a different ball game.

There is no time, time is up, if we did not do something about Ben right NOW he would end up shot.

I will not condemn a dog to months or years on a lead whilst we TRY to teach him to come back when he is called.

That to my mind is the height of cruelty.
Why is it cruel to keep a dog on a lead yet presumable you don't think it is cruel to use an e-collar on a dog? We have to keep Cherry leashed on a flexi-lead as she is dog-reactive to strange dogs. Is this cruel? No I call it being responsible. She does regularly get access to a large field where she can go off-lead safely as it is very quiet and I can see other dogs before they approach her.

In my opinion the end never justifies the means.
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