Rune, could you clarify the bit where you've said "Any idiot can pick holes in a book from 20 years ago----but 20 years ago it was an amazing sea change". Would like to know who you are referring to. Did nobody have enough intelligence to work out for themselves how to train dogs in a sympathetic manner years ago, and have to wait for John Fisher to change his mind? Because that's what it sounds like, the way it is being explained in these posts.

I think you really had to be there to realise the difference in so much. It was a revolution.

The idea that classes could be so different, that owners could be treated with respect, that puppies under 6 mths could be trained, that wonderful things could be achieved with all breeds using the newer methods----before then breeds like beagles, Afghans, terriers etc were lost causes. Any dog with an independant streak that didn't want to be shoved intoa sit and thrown around on a choke chain was a lost cause in most training classes. That heelwork could be done off lead to start with, that retrieves could be taught so fast using titbits.

rune

I think you have to remember that, at that time, we were only just starting to emerge from the 'Barbara Woodhouse' days. Dog training classes were fewer and further between and most were run by millitary precision, walking round in circles with lots of yank and jerk. Choke chains were highly common and if you mentioned clicker training, you'd be met with a totally blank stare.

Rewards were praise only (and much of the time, that was on ration) and these were far outweighed by physical corrections.

Science in the field of 'dogs' is still very much in its infancy today. Go back 20-30 years and there really wasn't much interest at all. Understanding and knowledge keeps moving us forward.

'Businessman' isn't a dirty word. Professional trainers then and now are all businessmen and women . It's the only way you can earn a living.

If John were here today and saying the same things he said then, I'd probably agree with your criticisms. As it is, he was one of those at the forefront of change and my guess is, if he were here today, he would be saying things much more in line with the things said by those in the association he set up do today.

Businessman is definitely not a dirty word, Brierley. I would agree with you there. But, being a good businessman means that you are always questioning how things will affect your business, or should, if you intend to run a good one. And, I am sure, as a business man, John Fisher would have done so. He seems to be showing a lot of business initiative in his books, and I can't imagine he wouldn't be into marketing today. And, with any good marketing, you have to have your finger on the pulse - what do people want? How do you evolve?

The reason I ask the question about "did nobody have the intelligence to train their dog sympathetically 20 years ago?" is because there are such a lot of knowledgeable people, who evidently love their dogs, posting on Dogsey. Twenty years ago, I was living in the States, and we had a dog we took over with us. We taught him lots of tricks and fun stuff as well as day to day training, and he just loved learning. Surely, lots of people like yourself were capable of training in a manner your dog enjoyed, and encouraging other people to do so? That's what puzzles me...?

We all learn, we all change. I know my methods have changed over 40 years. And no doubt in 20 years there will be other changes.
That is one of the reasons for not following `experts` but listening to what they say and using your judgement about what they say.
Yes, CM probably is changing - but he still promotes that `Pack Model` and also the idea that you should bully a dog into behaving how you want.

I think Ian Dunbar, the businessman, may not want Cesar Milan taking over his mantle, and "evolving" like John Fisher did to increase his market. Less market for Ian Dunbar, I'd imagine! And no "enemy" to ensure loyal followers.

yes I haddnt thought of him conditioning the 'foot tap'
In the episode with shadow I was just thinking like with Mia when she is so focused on a threat infront that the tinyiest of taps would have her spinning round to see where the new attack was comming from
Stress levels tru the roof - I was just lucky at the time that she was able to stop herself biting (she had my leg in her mouth at one point but managed to control herself)
I look at it exactly the same way as the MP who had the egg chucked at him and decked the guy
a total reflex

I dont mean CM kicks a dog to hurt them, but his kicks are timed to cause the greatest reaction, to stress the dog out the most so he gets a chance to show his wrestling man v's beast type fight
IMO at that point the dog is learning totaly nothing, but the tv vewers are loving it

The levels of adreniline for the dogs must be tru the roof
I am sure we have all at some point been totaly focused on something and when a friend gives you a gentle tap you get a giant fright, heart racing - and imo that is what is happening to the dogs, except there is not a friend there laughing at your overreaction - there is a stranger holding a noose round your neck

Aw, see I think that's quite sad. I honestly believe that Ian Dunbar would be thrilled if CM evolved.

I am sure I am not the only one.

Dunbar has spend most of his life helping dogs and owners and improving communication.

Wys
x

Spot on

Spot on, yet again

Wys
x

I can see where you're coming from Wys, and it is how you see it. And no doubt others may feel the same as you do. But it's not my opinion. And we are all entitled to our opinions.