No but there not just collies in the pastoral group are they.xxxxxxx

Re: Gundog owners posts on this thread, there seems to be two types, some that work their dogs and some that show theirs, there's also one or two that do both, but I'm thinking that if showers dogs are injured when dashing through thick undergrowth, their ring days could be over.

This is where showers may be really concerned taking their dogs on a shoot.

The owner of a gundog that looks good for showing but can also do the job it was intended to do have the best of both worlds IMO. They're a very rare species today.

Owners of such dogs should maybe consider taking sperm donations and freezing it in case of an unfortunate accident, I have a friend who is doing this now, he says he wishes he had done this years ago so he could bring back the genes into his kennels.

But my point is (that you seem to keep missing!) is that the working border collie doesn't need to be judged against a breed standard. The working collies look like border collies have always looked AND more importantly they can do the job for which they were originally bred. Why should the KC breed standard be of interest to a shepherd wanting a working border collie?

There is a world of difference between puppy farmed Malamutes and well bred ISDS border collies.

I think most people with working ISDS lines want to work their dogs though, not show. I understand your point, but really feel that the working border collie is better left out of the show ring and the shepherds and farmers continue to concentrate on producing healthy, well bred, working dogs.

I think there are a fair few stereotypes being thrown around on this thread. I own a show-lined border collie and he is fit, and loves his long walks off-lead in the woods In my opinion, I could get lessons on working my Alfie, and he probably could do it. However, there's a huge difference to being able to do it, and being good at it. He would never be used by a farmer as their working dog, because there are many dogs who a bred for this purpose entirely, and so are much better at it than him. Likewise, anyone could show their dog, but that's not to say they'd do well.

Equally, there are dogs bred for obedience or agility. Border Collies excel at these, it's natural that people might want a Border Collie to do competitive obedience with, for example. They may want a dog who is bred specifically for obedience, from obedience lines, and just as shepherds aren't concerned about whether their dogs could win shows, this obedience owner is unlikely to be bothered if their border collie wouldn't excel at herding. It doesn't matter to them. For the farmers, if the border collie looks like a border collie and works well, then it doesn't matter if it doesn't meet the breed standard exactly. For the obedience owner, they're still looking traits of the breed, they want the willingness to work and intelligence that the border collie is famous for. They're just asking for a different type of 'work'. Just because herding was the original work for this breed of dog, who's to say it can't do other types of work? Should herding border collies really be the only lines bred?

Why would you imagine that ? If the dogs here in the UK come from the same lines as their northern counterparts and, as Mick said, are still worked to the best of our ability, why would they not have the same stamina ?

The breed you have, working or not, doesn't evolve on it's own to fit into the climate/country it's in, it's still the same dog ! Malamutes in Australia still have Arctic dense coats, as they do in Alaska, therefore why would anything else have changed ?

Also, just because many dogs (of many breeds) don't work, it doesn't mean they can't

I'm not missing any points, no need for the tone

I'm saying that there is a world of difference between a dog simply 'looking' like the breed, and conforming to the original breed standard.

Many people are shocked how much there dog does NOT look like the standard when they see a dog that does

Sorry ZB, I missed this !

I was just replying to Iain who categorised breeders without including those that breed for show and working dogs and not just one or the other.

As for your breed, I'm unsure !

There are a lot of dogs that I feel personally are in the wrong Group, but whether a Boxer is one of them, I'm not sure. They DID have a job originally, and although their job has been taken away, that doesn't stop a Boxer being a Boxer

Hi Toni,
Probably not the pastoral group as this is for ""Herding dogs that are associated with working cattle, sheep, reindeer and other cloven footed animals."" (qoute from kc site)


Considering it says this ""Over the centuries these dogs were selectively bred to become guards and search and rescue dogs. Arguably, the working group consists of some of the most heroic canines in the world, aiding humans in many walks of like, including the Boxer, Great Dane and St Bernard. This group consists of the real specialists in their field who excel in their line of work."" About the working group I would be quite happy to have a dog from this group. (although I already do)

I'm not claiming that they are different dogs, what I meant was that the Northern dogs are going to be fitter and have more stamina because of the conditions/environment that they are raised, not because of their genetic make up. I am sure if you raised a UK Mal in Alaska it would be equally as fit as the native Mals, it's just that we don't have the long trails and harsh weather to train them in, thus they aren't likely to be as fit as the northern ones.