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Location: West Yorkshire
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 855
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Originally Posted by
Gnasher
But just to set the record straight - the e collar was used on Ben to train a reliable recall, nothing else. The REASON we wanted a reliable recall was because he was and is unreliable with SOME large males, particularly black labradors. If you have a dog who is DA, then you either need to keep him on the lead the whole time, or train him to be 100% re recall. We chose the latter ... and to do that, we had to (as a last resort) use an e collar.
I have never had to keep a DA dog on a lead, I have a good recall with them so don't need to, I taught them using positive methods, I also taught them they have nothing to fear with other dogs so instead of wanting to attach them they changed, they want to play with them and become really good with other dogs.
It is indeed NORMAL, entirely normal, for dogs to have a high prey drive. I have no problems with my dogs chasing and bringing down rabbits and squirrels, but what I cannot have is Ben disappearing off over the horizon hot on the heels of a deer and ignoring my recall. Having tried everything, including consultation with dog trainers, we went to the last resort of e collar. It was this or euthanise, because we were not prepared to keep Ben on the lead 24/7. Whether or not you agree with that, is up to you. But for me, I could never ever consider keeping a large dog on a leash 24/7, I like to see my dogs running free but under control. The second we call out "Come", Ben immediately turns and comes back to us. We have achieved what we wanted to achieve.
Even when he is too far away to hear you? This is when I use a whistle, the sound travels a lot further.
It is your choice to get a dog like this, it is up to you to meet all his needs.
Now we have to work on his aggression towards black labs. For this, we will not use the e collar simply because it will only make his aggression worse, not better. He will associate the zap as coming from the other dog, and this would only make him even more aggressive. There is no point using an e collar after the red mist has come down, none whatsoever.
Thankfully you understand this, so many don't.
I wasn't aware that I had been rude at all whatsoever - indeed, I have taken great pains not to be. If you think that me saying I don't care a fig what people think about me is being rude, then clearly we don't live on the same wavelength! Apologies though if you consider I have been rude
Thank you.
All dogs are different - I am sure that many, if not most, dogs will respond well to positive training methods - but my Ben does not. With dogs as with all animals, you sometimes have to accept that what works for one will not work for all.
It is up to us when training our dogs to find out what they will work for, dogs will work for different things, even dogs that will work for treats won't work for them if they have just been fed. We have to use our brains.
My dear girl, if I dotted every i and crossed every t, my posts would be even more rambly and long than they are!! So sorry I omitted to say that the chosen behaviourists were experienced in DA - I would have thought that was stating the obvious, but there you are, you can't win sometimes
Many, if not most, trainers and behaviourists don't have experience of aggression in dogs and many don't think that they can deal with it. On forums you constantly see owners with aggressive dogs see trainers/behaviourists with little or no experience of aggression, they had often made the problem worse.
Actually what you describe is perfectly correct. We found that we needed to go up to 20 on the Dogtra - which is considered to be a low setting, at the upper end of low. As you rightly say, you need to watch very carefully at the dog's reaction. You do not want to see the dog yelp, you are looking for a head shake - again as you rightly say. Again, you are quite right when you say that sometimes with a dog like Ben with a high prey drive you have to break through the adrenaline rush - after they have made that initial break after, eg, after a deer, you have a small window of opportunity. If the dog has not responded to your "Come" - he will, but not on the very first occasion of using the e collar because as you say the adrenaline takes over - then you need to give a zap - on about 10 - if you have got your timing right, then the dog will recall. But I cannot emphasise how important the timing is - you have a window of probably less than 3 seconds. Otherwise, as you rightly say, you would need to give a stim of least 20 and the dog may well vocalise which is most upsetting and you have failed. We have only had this happen with Ben once when he and Tai were being walked together off lead and a muntjac got up right under their feet. They were off like rockets, luckily OH was alert but not alert enough. Tai came back but Ben carried on, ignoring the first "Come" for a further couple or so seconds and he received a higher stim which made him yelp. He has never ever ever gone this long before without turning, and has never ever ever since. However, if you were too slow, and he managed to keep after the deer for as long as 5 or 6 seconds, then you would have to give him a sustained stim, which is something we have never done or had to do.
As you say timing is really important, I found that I had to get the command in before they finished the first stride, gradually that extended until I could call my dog off when she was chasing prey.
If for some reason you were asleep, and the dog was really into the hunt, then the red mist comes down and the dog will ignore even the highest setting. I have been told by an owner of Salukis that this is what happened with her, such is their prey drive. But for my Ben, the e collar has been his saviour.
When you are out with any animal you have to be alert all the time, there should be no going to sleep, that is when accidents happen.
Salukis are difficult to teach a good recall, I have done it with a foster boy I had, he was a Saluki Lurcher.
I don't mind my boys chasing wildlife - they've had the odd pheasant, several rabbits and squirrels - but we have to draw the line at deer because of the distance the deer can and will travel. The boys are fast enough to keep up, but for obvious reasons we don't want them disappearing.
Around livestock, we ALWAYS have them on the harness just in case. Ben actually is fine with sheep, but Tai would chase them and try and play with them, he views them as dogs not prey, but obviously both are a no no.
I don't like my dogs chasing anything because they will kill, several have managed to kill voles when on a short lead. My Greyhound has also managed to get a cat, hedgehog and rabbit when on a short lead. All he did with all of them was dive under a bush and came out with them in his mouth.