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Gnasher
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Gnasher is offline  
Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
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12-04-2015, 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by Strangechilde View Post
Yes! A lot of puppy classes will accept older dogs, so long as they're all up to date with vaccinations. Puppy classes can be great for rescue dogs who need a bit of socialisation, since they are (well, they certainly should be) safe, controlled environments that are generally fun to be in. Poor Taji had been through three sets of owners and spent seven months (!!!) in kennels before we got him at 18 months old-- he had some serious behaviour issues, but he absolutely loved puppy classes and even won a prize for stellar behaviour. Look for ones that only use positive training methods. I have heard some real horror stories about people who run classes and call themselves professionals who think yanking, choking and punishing are all okay things to do to dogs, so make sure you know what you're getting into, no matter how many letters they may have after their name. Your best bet is probably word of mouth recommendations. Local dog walkers can be amazing sources of information, and your vet may be able to recommend a class. Contact the class and explain your situation. As long as the class is 100% positive, you should be able to adapt training methods for your guy.

I agree completely with what SarahJade and lovemybull say about being the alpha/pack leader/whatever you want to call it. Something I've said before, and I stick by it, is that being a good alpha involves making beta a desirable position. A dog who follows you because you are genuinely worth following is going to be your friend for life, your valuable, valued companion-- not your browbeaten slave. And who wouldn't want to follow you? Just look at you! You're amazing! You have thumbs! You can open cans! You can work the oven and make that delectable roast butternut squash he loves so much! You know where all the most fun places are! So what if you won't let him eat poop... there's probably a reason for that.

Yeah, you can expect a bit of a glitch when he hits adolescence... but if by that time you have built a strong relationship based on trust and love, you'll get through it.

A couple of books I have found very helpful are The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell (actually, I'd recommend reading anything by her; you can start on the Reading Room on her website. Google her: she's the first hit) and If a Dog's Prayers were Answered, Bones would Rain from the Sky by Suzanne Clothier. She has some very sensible things to say about aggression, real and as perceived, and lots of sensible things to say about dogs and the ways we treat them. Honestly I should just buy these books in bulk to give away... Another good one is The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. These are all mainly focused on regular dogs, but there is a lot in them you'll be able to apply to your wolfy boy. Hope that helps!
Any dog lucky enough to have you as their owner is a very lucky dog!
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SarahJade
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12-04-2015, 04:58 PM
I used to run training classes (had to stop after a car crash) but I and other good/great local classes would have 2 basic level of classes.
Puppy classes for me were for puppies, all dogs had to be under 20 weeks at the start of class. I would match classes up to fit age groups, so have all the younger pups together, and have the ones that had just squeezed in together.
I personally would never let a year old dog in my puppy class.
I did however have a basic class. Pretty much full of rescues or dogs that owners had done little with and now couldn't control their dog. Most of this class were actually between 6 months and 2 1/2 years.
For this class I also liked to meet the dog before hand, and the first class was always about assessing how well I think the dog would cope and learn. If I thought the class wasn't right for the dog I would be frank with the owners and offer something else. At times I will admit that I told owners I thought I wasn't the right trainer for their dog and referred them to someone else local with better knowledge, experience and often qualifications (an actual behaviourist).

My point being that if you find a decent trainer/behaviourist they will find a way to teach your and your pup in a suitable environment with pleasant methods and if they feel they can't help will have links to others who can.
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Dibbythedog
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12-04-2015, 05:17 PM
=Awaiting Abyss;2865559]He recognizes me as leader. He lowers his ears when he looks my way, and he does show me his belly. He also licks my chin.
. We mainly use speech to communicate plus our body language which can be conscious and unconscious but dogs main form of communication with us and other dogs is their body language.

You dog is telling you things all the time in each encounter with you. Lowering ears etc is appeasive and he is signalling you I mean no harm in this encounter , its not necessarily telling you I see you as leader .

You'd find it really useful to have a good read up about canine body language and stress signals, those small signs that are clues to how our dogs are feeling can be easily missed.
One of most useful ones I have found to be is that very quick lip flip , if my dogs do this then they are anxious.
You can have a dog signalling appeasive signs but if lick flips then he is worried and depending on the circumstance , it could mean trouble ahead.


I dont want to get into the leader /alpha debate again , the best thing you can do now is spend time getting to know your dog and let him get to know you and you family. Be confident and relaxed and consistant,
dont get to hung up about the pack leader thing and be careful how and when you assert yourself.

Sometimes you can end up forcing a dog to do something its not ready to do or is not able to cope or sometimes "assertive" body language or voice can appear threatening to a dog . In these circumstances , respect of the pack leader goes out of the window and the dog will feel the need to prote4ct h9imself from you .

Dogs gain confidence from certainty , you know your self how anxious you get if you are not sure of things and worry if you will get into trouble for doing the wrong thing so you need to be consistant with him so he can know what to expect and once he knows what to expect he will learn to trust you . You can trust someone who is unpredictable( or appears to be to the dog ) .

I think this dog is lucky to have a home with you as you are determined to help him . It must be over whelming for you but trust your instinct and read up as much as you can from reputable sources.
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Strangechilde
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12-04-2015, 05:19 PM
AwGnasher, you make me blush. Got to give credit where it's due though... I have some pretty sweet dogs.
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Dibbythedog
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12-04-2015, 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
You absolutely HAVE to be the leader (I prefer to use the word alpha, but for the sake of peace I shall say leader!). No wolfdog will be happy if he thinks he cannot trust you, cannot rely on you to protect him in every sense of the word. This is true of all dogs, but with wolf crosses even more so.
I guess it depends on how one defines Pack leader and what one consider to be assertiveness. Unfortunately it often leads to abuse.

NO dog is happy if it cannot trust its owner , a dog has to feel safe around it's own owner first before it can feel safe in other circumstances.

I like to think I'm in partnership with my dogs but I'm the executive partner who makes the important decisions.

Terriers like mine tend to think for themselves and think attack is the best form of defence. We have walked up to six dogs so we do have to be in charge and in control. I make the decisions on where we walk , decide if its safe for them to be on or off leads, whether to let them meet the oncoming dog or move away etc for their safety .
Good basic obedience training like recall or stay is important too. I ramdom reward to reinforce the wanted behaviour but will use a sterner voice if necessary sometimes if they don't comply. But as I have had my dogs for some years a sterner tone now does not worry them where as it would have when i first adopted them.

Sadly , I can't always stop dogs attacking my small dogs , I have stood in front of them to stop charging dogs or pulled dogs off them but in reality, I cant protect them and I think they know that.



This is why so many end up in rescue ... most people just cannot give them what they truly need ... company being the most important. You really do need to think outside of the box with these dogs, roll with the punches, ignore what is not important. So Ben doesn't always lie down the instant I ask him to ... so what, as long as he is under control and not leaping around, so what? So what if he sits, but will not lie down? Hal, his father was notorious for this, he hated to lie down. This is rolling with the punches ... ignoring the trivia and dealing correctly with the important things.
Agree with the above. I wish everyone had your relaxed attitude.
I think that is one of the problems when we talk abut pack leader , dog owners can take it to mean that the dog must do everything you say , otherwise he wont respect you or is trying to control you which we all know is not true.
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Gnasher
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12-04-2015, 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Dibbythedog View Post
. We mainly use speech to communicate plus our body language which can be conscious and unconscious but dogs main form of communication with us and other dogs is their body language.

You dog is telling you things all the time in each encounter with you. Lowering ears etc is appeasive and he is signalling you I mean no harm in this encounter , its not necessarily telling you I see you as leader .

You'd find it really useful to have a good read up about canine body language and stress signals, those small signs that are clues to how our dogs are feeling can be easily missed.
One of most useful ones I have found to be is that very quick lip flip , if my dogs do this then they are anxious.
You can have a dog signalling appeasive signs but if lick flips then he is worried and depending on the circumstance , it could mean trouble ahead.


I dont want to get into the leader /alpha debate again , the best thing you can do now is spend time getting to know your dog and let him get to know you and you family. Be confident and relaxed and consistant,
dont get to hung up about the pack leader thing and be careful how and when you assert yourself.

Sometimes you can end up forcing a dog to do something its not ready to do or is not able to cope or sometimes "assertive" body language or voice can appear threatening to a dog . In these circumstances , respect of the pack leader goes out of the window and the dog will feel the need to prote4ct h9imself from you .

Dogs gain confidence from certainty , you know your self how anxious you get if you are not sure of things and worry if you will get into trouble for doing the wrong thing so you need to be consistant with him so he can know what to expect and once he knows what to expect he will learn to trust you . You can trust someone who is unpredictable( or appears to be to the dog ) .

I think this dog is lucky to have a home with you as you are determined to help him . It must be over whelming for you but trust your instinct and read up as much as you can from reputable sources.
He is indeed extremely lucky to have such a good owner as AA. However, as you yourself say, dogs gain confidence from certainty. I have over 15 years experience with wolf crosses, one of whom was an F1 and virtually wild. It is absolutely essential that AA demonstrates to the dog that she is pack leader, alpha female, leader, whatever you want to call her by being calm, assertive, consistent, loving, setting the rules, boundaries and limitations that SHE wants the dog to adhere to. This does NOT mean shouting ... assertiveness is not aggression ... wolf crosses in particular do not like raised voices, and abhor any sort of physical aggression. But assertiveness they respect, trust and thrive with ... because if you demonstrate to the dog that you are a good pack leader, they can relax, safe in the knowledge that you will feed them, protect them, shelter them and support them. An assertive leader means they can have fun, have fulfilled sleep without constantly having to be on guard.

Ben and I have a complete holistic and symbiotic relationship now. We know when we are unhappy, I know instantly when he wants something ... and can differentiate between food, water or his ball. We trust each other now ... this is a miracle for Ben because he absolutely hates having his tail even touched, let alone brushed, but he will allow me to brush it now without a muzzle.

This has been achieved by being alpha female, leading by example and being 100% consistent, assertive but tempered with a lot of love and horseplay ... Ben loves to play, even though he is terribly rough and I usually end up bleeding from his horrendously sharp claws! He has never learned how to play nicely, so OH and I are the only humans who engage in horseplay with him on any type.

Being a good alpha has nothing to do with dominance in the aggressive sense of the word. Mental and physical aggression has no place in the world of dog training.
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Gnasher
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12-04-2015, 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by Dibbythedog View Post
I guess it depends on how one defines Pack leader and what one consider to be assertiveness. Unfortunately it often leads to abuse.

NO dog is happy if it cannot trust its owner , a dog has to feel safe around it's own owner first before it can feel safe in other circumstances.

I like to think I'm in partnership with my dogs but I'm the executive partner who makes the important decisions.

Terriers like mine tend to think for themselves and think attack is the best form of defence. We have walked up to six dogs so we do have to be in charge and in control. I make the decisions on where we walk , decide if its safe for them to be on or off leads, whether to let them meet the oncoming dog or move away etc for their safety .
Good basic obedience training like recall or stay is important too. I ramdom reward to reinforce the wanted behaviour but will use a sterner voice if necessary sometimes if they don't comply. But as I have had my dogs for some years a sterner tone now does not worry them where as it would have when i first adopted them.

Sadly , I can't always stop dogs attacking my small dogs , I have stood in front of them to stop charging dogs or pulled dogs off them but in reality, I cant protect them and I think they know that.





Agree with the above. I wish everyone had your relaxed attitude.
I think that is one of the problems when we talk abut pack leader , dog owners can take it to mean that the dog must do everything you say , otherwise he wont respect you or is trying to control you which we all know is not true.
A dog is first and foremost an animal, and I firmly believe that they should be allowed to BE an animal, not a robotic automaton responding instantly to every barked command. It is give and take, a relaxed attitude to what is important and what is not. Ben knows when I mean it ... my whole body language changes, my speech becomes monosyllabic and assertive, not loud, but assertive. That means I am She Who Must Be Obeyed.

He is a bit like a horse - when you are trying to lead a horse into a trailer and he is reluctant to go, you do not look at the horse, you look forward up the ramp and very positively walk briskly forward commanding the horse to walk on. It is the same in particular with wolf crosses. You do not look at them when telling them to get off the sofa or the bed, you tell them to get down with your assertive body language even more than your voice.
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Gnasher
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12-04-2015, 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by Strangechilde View Post
AwGnasher, you make me blush. Got to give credit where it's due though... I have some pretty sweet dogs.
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Strangechilde
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12-04-2015, 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by Dibbythedog View Post
I guess it depends on how one defines Pack leader and what one consider to be assertiveness. Unfortunately it often leads to abuse.

NO dog is happy if it cannot trust its owner , a dog has to feel safe around it's own owner first before it can feel safe in other circumstances.

I like to think I'm in partnership with my dogs but I'm the executive partner who makes the important decisions.

Terriers like mine tend to think for themselves and think attack is the best form of defence. We have walked up to six dogs so we do have to be in charge and in control. I make the decisions on where we walk , decide if its safe for them to be on or off leads, whether to let them meet the oncoming dog or move away etc for their safety .
Good basic obedience training like recall or stay is important too. I ramdom reward to reinforce the wanted behaviour but will use a sterner voice if necessary sometimes if they don't comply. But as I have had my dogs for some years a sterner tone now does not worry them where as it would have when i first adopted them.

Sadly , I can't always stop dogs attacking my small dogs , I have stood in front of them to stop charging dogs or pulled dogs off them but in reality, I cant protect them and I think they know that.





Agree with the above. I wish everyone had your relaxed attitude.
I think that is one of the problems when we talk abut pack leader , dog owners can take it to mean that the dog must do everything you say , otherwise he wont respect you or is trying to control you which we all know is not true.
Totally agree, especially with that last statement. Any old idiot can be a bully-- that's easy. It is the refuge of the unimaginative. To be a good leader takes sense, observation, and empathy. Sometimes it means standing back from yourself. Sometimes it means getting over yourself. It's not easy and mistakes happen. No one can be 100% on the ball all the time, but the point is to take it in stride, learn from it what you can, and move on. I've made so many mistakes I could kick myself black and blue sometimes, but that wouldn't help anyone, much as I might want to. The one thing I would convey telepathically if I could is that it takes respect both ways-- and you have to respect yourself as leader, too. Know your strengths and play to them. I don't know about anyone else, but having dogs has made me a far more confident person-- not nasty (I hope!) but stronger and better able to deal with the bad stuff when it does (as it will) happen.
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Awaiting Abyss
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13-04-2015, 04:52 AM
He bit my husband three more times today. I haven't found a trainer yet, but I've emailed high content rescues and breeders.


Originally Posted by Dibbythedog View Post
. We mainly use speech to communicate plus our body language which can be conscious and unconscious but dogs main form of communication with us and other dogs is their body language.

You dog is telling you things all the time in each encounter with you. Lowering ears etc is appeasive and he is signalling you I mean no harm in this encounter , its not necessarily telling you I see you as leader .

You'd find it really useful to have a good read up about canine body language and stress signals, those small signs that are clues to how our dogs are feeling can be easily missed.
One of most useful ones I have found to be is that very quick lip flip , if my dogs do this then they are anxious.
You can have a dog signalling appeasive signs but if lick flips then he is worried and depending on the circumstance , it could mean trouble ahead.
I know wolf/dog body language. That is why I know lowering ears in a certain manner is used by wolves toward their leader wolves out of respect/submission. Ears back, with a grin and head lowered when approaching a higher ranking wolf is a form of submission.
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