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Chris
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25-10-2013, 05:39 PM
Is there really a 'gentle' way to cause a dog discomfort and, in many cases, pain??

It's a contradiction in terms
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Mattie
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25-10-2013, 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Is there really a 'gentle' way to cause a dog discomfort and, in many cases, pain??

It's a contradiction in terms
I have found you at last Remember Merlin and his walking to heel, his nose in your pocket

You are the best trainer I have ever come across and Bonnie sends her love, yes I still have Bonnie.

Back to the subject, I have taken on dogs that were going to be pts if I didn't take them, people were put in A & E because of the bites, I was able to turn them round without using one of these collars and were rehomed were the new owners carried on the work I started. When we resort to gadgets like this that cause discomfort or hurt a dog to teach them how to behave we have failed the dog.
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Baxter8
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25-10-2013, 06:47 PM
Gnasher - that's amazing my boy loathes black Labradors too - well he hates chocolate Labradors too.

I have never used an electric collar (in fact any collar) but I have to say when I've seen him charge into a herd of young cattle that I hadn't know were there, then I wished I had had one. Now I walk him expecting to come across livestock.

Given the fact that they can do more damage than good then I couldn't possibly support their use.

Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I agree entirely ... and my husband falls into your categories. Although he ended up as a human medical scientist, the main part of his degree was Zoology - specialising in mammalian physiology, but also biochemistry. Before attempting to even think about using an e collar on Ben, he did an enormous amount of research with as wide a range of opinions as he possibly could. He consulted several behaviourists, at least two of which declared that there was no hope for Ben ... it was euthanasia or the last resort of an e collar. Even the option of keeping him on the lead the whole time, muzzled, was not an option, because he is so immensely strong that even OH could not have held him had he really wanted to go. He wears a muzzle occasionally, and this of course prevents him from inflicting serious injury, but his massive paws and strength mean that he can really hurt another dog in a fight with his claws and sheer body weight and power. This is in extremis ... usually when we meet a male black labrador, they really seem to trigger something primieval in his psyche which is most unfortunate because we are surrounded by black labradors! Hence the e collar, it was a last resort, we had to be sure that we could control him 100% when the red mist came down.

We are now at the stage where he does not wear his muzzle at all in public, but he always wears the collar. However, we never have to use it - once in a blue moon when caught unawares, OH has had to give him a vibrate, but an actual stim, no never. Our next step is to start meeting male black labradors, with him muzzled and of course on the lead, but not wearing the e collar. There is no point in zapping him once the red mist has come down - it simply would not work, and would be cruel and therefore pointless. You can never train any animal using cruelty - used correctly and gently, the e collar provides an invisble link between you and your dog - or at least I should say between us and Ben, because not all dogs would respond to an e collar. Ben does - it worked - immediately. Enabling the dog to live, opposed to being put down.

Rehoming was not an option - you really need to understand this type of dog, and have the right home circumstances - leaving Ben home alone is just not an option, and you need to be fearless when you come face to face with a black labrador! I don't know of anyone who would have tolerated what Ben dished out to us when we first rehomed him!

It was e collar or euthanasia - no choice. And we now have a dog who is absolutely adorable - a hooligan, but very very loving and loveable, who adores children but hates male black labradors!!

Our next big step is to do some training with a co-operative black labrador and his owner. Luckily we have just such a candidate living in our village ... a very arsey entire male who HATES Ben and vice versa, a perfect combination.
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muddymoodymoo
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25-10-2013, 07:00 PM
It would be interesting to hear from somebody else who has had success with the e-collar. But either there is nobody else on Dogsey or they are too frightened to admit it?
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Gnasher
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26-10-2013, 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by Mattie View Post
I have found you at last Remember Merlin and his walking to heel, his nose in your pocket

You are the best trainer I have ever come across and Bonnie sends her love, yes I still have Bonnie.

Back to the subject, I have taken on dogs that were going to be pts if I didn't take them, people were put in A & E because of the bites, I was able to turn them round without using one of these collars and were rehomed were the new owners carried on the work I started. When we resort to gadgets like this that cause discomfort or hurt a dog to teach them how to behave we have failed the dog.
Mattie I totally agree with what you say. But what would you do if you had the situation that we had ... euthanasia or try something that was a total anathema to everything I had ever believed in during my 40 plus years of owning dogs. I had previously never ever ever inflicted pain on a dog as a training method - apart from using a choke chain back in the bad old Barbara Woodhouse days when I knew no better. My husband wanted to PTS. I cannot say publically what happened, but it was bad enough to mean an enforced euthanasia for Ben.

For those of you who don't know, we rescued Ben nearly 3 years ago now. Coincidentally, he was the son of our old and very beloved wolf cross mal, Hal, now deceased. Like so many of these types of dogs (bought as adorable fluffy little puppies by people who have no idea how to handle these types of dogs), Ben ended up being very cruelly treated, tied up 24/7 on concrete with no shelter. To cut a very long and sad story short, he ended up with us, a bundle of under-exercised, over-aggressive - both with adult humans and other male dogs - and thoroughly unpleasant dog. His last home had been a lovely one, but our friend spoiled Ben rotten and indulged his every whim. He was allowed to do as he pleased.

Reader, we turned this dog around. We overcame the aggression towards adult humans, the aggression towards male dogs - except for large black ones, particularly labradors - we enforced a level of obedience in everything but recall. Ben, doubtless inherited in his Mal genes, was a runner - he would run off whilst on walks, not for long, but you could not allow such a large and unpredictable dog loose in the Northamptonshire countryside. Neither was it an option to keep him on a lead. Neither was it an option to exercise him in enclosed fields, because there isn't a fence or hedge that has been invented that Ben would not jump over or through if he had a mind to.

Behaviourists were consulted, nothing worked, no reward system, no clicker training, nothing, and the last 2 we saw both advised euthanasia or e collar. For us it was a no brainer ... the rest as they say is history.

We now have a dog whose recall is second to none - even amongst livestock or if a deer has got up and is chased by Ben and his kennel mate, Tai. He is incredibly loving, he even allows us to groom him - something which before he would have had your hand off - he is just a different dog. We have the problem still of male black labs, which we are working on hopefully with the help of a friend in the village who has a very male aggressive black labrador. not sure if we will ever crack this problem, but we shall try. The one problem with an e collar is that you cannot use it on a dog that is in the middle of a fight, for obvious reasons.

Hope this helps to explain that sometimes with dogs, you need to seemingly be cruel to be kind.
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Gnasher
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26-10-2013, 10:41 AM
Originally Posted by Baxter8 View Post
Gnasher - that's amazing my boy loathes black Labradors too - well he hates chocolate Labradors too.

I have never used an electric collar (in fact any collar) but I have to say when I've seen him charge into a herd of young cattle that I hadn't know were there, then I wished I had had one. Now I walk him expecting to come across livestock.

Given the fact that they can do more damage than good then I couldn't possibly support their use.
I appreciate that Baxter ... it's wierd about black labs isn't it. So many dogs hate them, Ben isn't unique! I adore them, which probably doesn't help!!

I have a theory about dogs seemingly being "racist" or "breedist". My boy Ben is a Mal wolf x, and I have deduced over many years of owning these dogs that floppy ears - such as the labrador has - are unnatural to a wolf species. Wolves do not have floppy ears, they have erect ears, and to a dog like Ben, who is very wolfy in his ways and behaviour, this could be flagged up as a danger, something to be dealt with assertively. Funnily enough, he is fine with collies - they do not have floppy ears - but large black males with floppy ears seem to trigger something in him and he goes ballastic. He very rarely has actually bitten - with one notable exception being the black lab who lives next door and shares our drive - but he will pin another dog and give the poor thing a thorough pasting without as I say actually biting. The noise is horrendous and so we have to be extremely careful now when out with him. OH wears a harness round his waist which connects to the 2 dogs and so they cannot pounce on another dog - even if they pulled him over, he would not let go. We let both dogs off the lead only when we are absolutely sure that there is no-one around and we choose areas around us which are virtually always deserted. Ben wears his e collar at all times when outside, but OH never has to use it in earnest - a vibrate is a reminder if Ben needs one.
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Gnasher
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26-10-2013, 10:43 AM
Originally Posted by muddymoodymoo View Post
It would be interesting to hear from somebody else who has had success with the e-collar. But either there is nobody else on Dogsey or they are too frightened to admit it?
I know several who use/have used one, and several who are considering it.

When you bear in mind the horrendous savaging that I received when I first confessed to my sins, it is hardly surprising that they are too frightened to admit it!

Me, I don't care what anyone thinks of me, I know that what I have done and am doing for Ben is working, and that is all that counts.
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Florence
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26-10-2013, 10:46 AM
Black labs is an issue for us too (also any wolf type dogs, erect ears and big fur is intimidating for a lot of dogs).
Black labs have the addition that they're black, so it's difficult for many dogs to read their facial expressions. I guess especially for wolf dogs that would be difficult, as wolves have at least twice as many facial espressions than domesticated dogs (any dogs with flat noses, wrinkles, bulging eyes etc have even less).

Just on a side note
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Gnasher
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26-10-2013, 10:57 AM
Originally Posted by Florence View Post
Black labs is an issue for us too (also any wolf type dogs, erect ears and big fur is intimidating for a lot of dogs).
Black labs have the addition that they're black, so it's difficult for many dogs to read their facial expressions. I guess especially for wolf dogs that would be difficult, as wolves have at least twice as many facial espressions than domesticated dogs (any dogs with flat noses, wrinkles, bulging eyes etc have even less).

Just on a side note
Very interesting what you say Florence. You are quite correct about black making it difficult for wolf dogs to read the facial expressions. There are no solid-coloured wolves, they are all multi-coloured, or rather they are various shades. Occasional black wolves have been seen and photographed, but it is thought that these have resulted in an outcross with a domestic dog.
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JoedeeUK
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26-10-2013, 10:59 AM
There is someone who has used an e collar on their dog to allegedly stop stock chasing-if memory serves me right.

There is a simple way of stopping a dog stock chasing-don't let it near stock QED

My Meggee is a failed sheepdog, she likes the taste of sheep rather that the idea of herding them. I would never dream of putting her in a position in which she could be tempted to attack sheep again-my other BCs can take or leave sheep depending on what I tell them to do, at the moment they are told to leave stock alone & do so. Mr T has yet to encounter sheep close up, but having seen how he reacts to them at a distance, he too will need to be taught to ignore them(without the use of an e collar)

As for using one to stop aggression-well that would be logical if dogs thought & reasoned like humans, but they don't.

Like Malka I can think of several humans who should wear an e collar permanently !
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