E collars cover quite a wide range, there are some that only vibrate, these are often used with deaf dogs to get their attention, some spray air, water, citronella into the dog's face but they can be set off by another dog barking so the dog gets sprayed for doing nothing. The citronella once sting the dogs nose, mouth and eyes which stays with the dog for some time, these are cruel. Then there is the collar that gives the dog a shock and it is these that most people object to.

I have seen a dog that had a shock collar used on him, he was a beautiful, black, long haired GSD but nervous. His owner was told to take him to training classes because he was so aggressive at 6 months old, she took him once then not knowing the trainer was a friend tried to slag her off, it didn't work, this was a really good positive trainer. Eventually she sent him away for 6 weeks for "Training", came back sedude which didn't last long, when he came out of it he was worse so a shock collar was put on him.

I was there one day and just leaving, the dog was in the front garden with his owner, as we were talking the dog saw the postman down the road and went to take off to him, she pressed the button, the dog screamed and became a quivering wreck, she quickly dragged the dog inside, thanks to her this dog would have killed the postman if he got to him. He had directed the shock to the postman.

She offered the dog to the police who said he was too far gone, he went to the army. One day a senior Training Officer went into his kennel, the dog attacked and they had to shoot the dog to get him off. The Officer ended up in hospital for several weeks.

Yes that was misuse of the collar but most people do misuse them, I saw that with my own eyes but have also read a lot on forums from people who used one of these collars or the electric fence type have problems with their dogs because of the collars. One in particular had a footpath along the bottom of her land, she used an electric fence, if the dog had the collar on he would attack anyone walking on the path, if no collar on he ignored them.

I would ban them, there is no place for them, I have turned a lot of dogs round that were going to be pts and once have I needed to resort to anything apart from positive training, yes this takes a lot longer but it establishes the behaviour for the rest of the dogs life, these collars only establish it when the dog is wearing the collar.

The plus side is most SAR dogs at the WTC were wearing one but these were to communicate with the dogs when they were underground, the vibration told the dog their handler wanted them. A bit of extra information, the Pit Bulls continued to work a long time after the other breeds gave up.

I think I didn't mean the ones that just vibrate, I meant electric shock ones that give the dog a painful shock to the throat.
The ones that just vibrate should be allowed under special circumstances, like you said with deaf dogs for example. But think they could be made better, for example so they don't vibrate right by the throat, but more on the shoulders. That way the dog notices it but it's not on such a sensitive part of the body.

In all honesty I don't think about them at all, they simply don't feature on my radar. It's certainly not something I have ever considered using.
I'm not really into banning things from sale/use either but think they should probably only be available to professionals who have been fully trained etc. on their use. I don't think Joe Public should be able to buy one on line and then put it on their dog while they try to figure out how it works.
I think they may have a place in extreme cases/ situations etc. but not for me and mine tbh. I'd find another way to deal/cope with and manage the situation.

I totally agree. Although I disagree with your last paragraph.

if we agreed on everything we would be in that thread on cloning

I am not even keen on the idea of spraying citronella collars so you can imagine what I feel about electric shocks for dogs !

I'm strongly in favour of a total ban. The things have the capability to cause so much damage it's a no brainer for me.

I'm well aware of the GSD that Mattie has mentioned (hi Mattie) and it was tragic as he was a lovely dog ruined by a combination of owner and equipment which eventually cost him his life

I know a (then) wanna-be trainer use one on her dog resulting in the dog being petrified of the garden and have tried one on my own arm which only served to back up my beliefs - it went from not feeling at all to being damned painful with nothing in between.

I also tried a spray collar on my arm using the air only canister which resulted in a burn-like mark on my arm (and felt like a burn) which lasted for a good 10 days.

We really don't need to cause dogs discomfort to train them . To do so remotely just adds another layer of cruelty in my opinion.

No my views have not changed and never will.
For me inflicting pain has no part in the training or owning of dogs.
I have however added a few more humans to my list of those who would benefit from the use of an ecollar

A total ban on ecollars for me, and yes they should be made illegal.

I don't think about them , I don't think about thumb screws or the rack either. They all belong in the dark ages.

I think they should only be used by licensed trainers and only in extreme circustances. People who have demonstrated that they can and have trained dogs using positive methods. People who have a deep understanding of dog's psyche and would only use the collars when everything else has failed.

But that's not gonna happen for many reasons.

As long as the collars are available on the internet, they will be purchased and used by those who know very little about dogs or don't care about dogs and don't care whether there is a ban or not. You can easily hide it on a thick coated dog so who will know?

Would I use it on my dogs? No.

I agree entirely ... and my husband falls into your categories. Although he ended up as a human medical scientist, the main part of his degree was Zoology - specialising in mammalian physiology, but also biochemistry. Before attempting to even think about using an e collar on Ben, he did an enormous amount of research with as wide a range of opinions as he possibly could. He consulted several behaviourists, at least two of which declared that there was no hope for Ben ... it was euthanasia or the last resort of an e collar. Even the option of keeping him on the lead the whole time, muzzled, was not an option, because he is so immensely strong that even OH could not have held him had he really wanted to go. He wears a muzzle occasionally, and this of course prevents him from inflicting serious injury, but his massive paws and strength mean that he can really hurt another dog in a fight with his claws and sheer body weight and power. This is in extremis ... usually when we meet a male black labrador, they really seem to trigger something primieval in his psyche which is most unfortunate because we are surrounded by black labradors! Hence the e collar, it was a last resort, we had to be sure that we could control him 100% when the red mist came down.

We are now at the stage where he does not wear his muzzle at all in public, but he always wears the collar. However, we never have to use it - once in a blue moon when caught unawares, OH has had to give him a vibrate, but an actual stim, no never. Our next step is to start meeting male black labradors, with him muzzled and of course on the lead, but not wearing the e collar. There is no point in zapping him once the red mist has come down - it simply would not work, and would be cruel and therefore pointless. You can never train any animal using cruelty - used correctly and gently, the e collar provides an invisble link between you and your dog - or at least I should say between us and Ben, because not all dogs would respond to an e collar. Ben does - it worked - immediately. Enabling the dog to live, opposed to being put down.

Rehoming was not an option - you really need to understand this type of dog, and have the right home circumstances - leaving Ben home alone is just not an option, and you need to be fearless when you come face to face with a black labrador! I don't know of anyone who would have tolerated what Ben dished out to us when we first rehomed him!

It was e collar or euthanasia - no choice. And we now have a dog who is absolutely adorable - a hooligan, but very very loving and loveable, who adores children but hates male black labradors!!

Our next big step is to do some training with a co-operative black labrador and his owner. Luckily we have just such a candidate living in our village ... a very arsey entire male who HATES Ben and vice versa, a perfect combination.