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Firstlight
Dogsey Junior
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29-01-2013, 02:00 AM
Originally Posted by Azz View Post
Also, a quick note about this thread - it's not good netiquette to start a new thread quoting someone from another. This is because it's unfair to drag people into a thread that they may not want to get involved in with.

By all means start a new thread on a topic, but it should be able to stand alone, and not be tied to another. (You could just say something like "A recent thread on training inspired this one".)

We'll leave this thread up now as Lindsay has replied a few times, but please bear this in mind for future. Thanks
Mea culpa Azz, and apologies to anyone who was put off by my breach of netiquette. Thanks so much for the heads up.
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Firstlight
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29-01-2013, 02:14 AM
Originally Posted by Lucky Star View Post
Mini is absolutely right. We've all been here before and it always goes the same way, including:- Firstlight, you appear to be trying to twist it round so that it's the 'abuse' of the collar that is the issue, rather than the abuse of the dog by using one in the first place. As I say, this has happened before - as Wysiwig said in post number 43:

"Why is it shock collar supporters always ask the same questions? And then give the same replies, and then so it goes on - it's always the same. I think you all frequent some kind of shock collar planet or something

I don't mean to be rude, but we've had some seemingly pleasant people on here before who have been shock supporters and all they all have an agenda - to promote shock collar use at the detriment of animal welfare."
No twisting going on Lucky star, just a difference of opinion re:what constitutes abuse.

Did you read my response to the post you quoted? See post #61.

I find it interesting that so many of you have heard all this before and consider it hogwash, yet you continue to post here.
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Firstlight
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29-01-2013, 02:31 AM
Originally Posted by Azz View Post
Susan, you ask why people are against the use of electric shock collars - that's easy to answer - because they inflict pain. Both physical and mental.

If you are unfamiliar with it, I would look up the research done by Ivan Pavlov - it was covered recently in a BBC documentary called The Brain: A Secret History http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00xccs9 - I think you can view it here: http://vimeo.com/18608588

Although the example is extreme, the principle is the same.

Dog lovers do not hit/inflict pain on their animals.
Dog lovers do not mentally or physically abuse their pets.

As has been asked of you several times, why not give us real life examples of your usage - i.e the precise context in which you use them, the frequency of use and why you feel other (positive based) methods do not work. As many have said here, positive based training can be used for almost anything where one might have previously used punishment based training.
Re: the last paragraph: LOL Azz, that's exactly what I have repeatedly asked for from many of the posters, real life examples of collar use that they have witnessed! Have you not noticed my plea, and the stated reason for it? Pot, meet kettle.

See post #79 which deals with some of your questions.
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Firstlight
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29-01-2013, 04:25 AM
Originally Posted by Wyrekin View Post
As others have stated the dislike of the e-collar stems from the fact it inflicts pain. I have personally seen an e-collar used to stop a dog jumping up. The dog approached a person went to jump up the owner gave it a shock and surprise surprise the dog bit the person it was approaching.

From what I have gleaned from the thread your method involves training a command, affirming a command and then introducing the e-collar when it is felt the command is now understood. The dog is shocked when a command it is known to understand is not followed thus reminding the dog that when a command is given it must carry it out whatever it is doing.

The problem I have with this is, provided my assessment of the situation is correct although I could be wrong as for some reason you have avoided giving an example of how you use it in favour of repeatedly asking people questions you know aren't getting you anywhere, sorry I started to rant there.

Anyway the problem is no one is infallible, distractions happen and I do not personally feel a dog is capable of wilfully disobeying a command. If I call my dog and it doesn't come back I do not think "oh he is ignoring me" I think "what's caught his attention? What's more interesting than me?" The answer is normally fairly obvious be it another dog or some dead thing he can eat. I know these are difficult for him to ignore so I manage him around those things, I prempt his behaviour by putting him on lead before on seeing dogs in the distance (even though he is fine with them).

One of the main things that has been drummed in to me when training is 'Never set a dog up to fail.'

By the sounds of things you step in when a dog fails and give it a shock possibly reducing the chances of it happening again. I however would prefer my dog to fail or spend my life prompting behaviours than ever zap it with an electric collar.

ETA- Sometimes we ask too much of our dogs, 100% obedience would be great but it is not possible. Dogs are animals that thrive on their natural instincts. With the best will in the world we can get a dog to do what we ask most of the time but sometimes you have to choose your battles. I, for instance, know there is no point in trying to call Malcolm back from other dogs, he won't come back because I have yet to fully train a recall into him and all I do by calling him but not successfully getting him back is start the process of turning the command in to just another word. For that reason he stays on a long line. If I were to shock him when he didn't return, even once I felt I had got a recall on him, he would run and run and run. He has been abused in the past and if I were to use a schlock collar on him because I was too lazy to manage his behaviours then I am no less abusive than his previous owners.

On another note I once saw someone put on on the back of a persons neck (they were making a point as the victim in question was intending to use it on their dog). When the shock was given, on the lowest setting, the dog owners legs went out from underneath him and he landed in a heap on the floor. Funnily enough he didn't use it after that.

I apologise if I am wrong in my assumptions of your use of the e-collar. Perhaps I would have stood a better chance of seeing things from your perspective if you had answered one of the many questions posed to you instead of constantly repeating the same question back and disappearing when somebody finally answered it to your satisfaction.
Excellent post Wryekin, thank you.You seem very knowledgeable, so I assume you know why the example you cited had the outcome it did. For those who don't know, this would be my explanation:

Start with the basic premise of escape-avoidance training, which is that a very important component of correction is that the dog must clearly understand that the correction was caused by his behavior, and the corollary, i.e. if his behavior caused his correction, his behavior can stop (escape) it, and ultimately avoid it all together. If the dog does not understand that, he will associate the correction with where he was when it happened, and/or whomever or whatever was closest to him at the time. In the example cited, the dog had no idea that he caused the correction, and thus had no clue as to how avoid it; worse yet, he "blamed" the correction on the victim. His response of biting was perfectly understandable, it was the predictable response of a dog with an active defense reflex, and in his mind he was merely defending himself against an anticipated attack.

Now, consider an alternate scenario: The educated owner knows the trigger for puppies jumping up on people is not the pup's expression of "love" for his owner, rather it instinctively-driven food seeking behavior. It is a perfectly normal greeting behavior, but it undesirable from an adult dog in polite society (it is also a rude aggressive behavior in many adult dogs, but I digress). The educated owner aims to prevent the behavior from ever getting started as much as possible, and certainly does not reinforce it (thus actively teaching the pup to jump up) with attention. The educated owner does not punish the dog, rather he teaches the dog an alternate acceptable behavior, e.g., to greet people in a sit (stay); the dog can't very well jump up and sit at the same time, the behaviors are incompatible. The whole purpose of obedience training is to give the dog a set of acceptable behaviors to substitute for the perfectly normal but unacceptable ones that the pup came with..

Correction doesn't apply until the dog reliably responds to the sit/stay command, taught in a manner that sets the dog up to be right (make the right thing easy to do, and the wrong thing hard to do), and makes it plain that breaking the sit will not be rewarded. Distractions are introduced, gradually escalating to whatever the strongest is for the individual animal, and appropriate correction used to show the dog that it is much more rewarding to be right that it is to be wrong, and that right vs. wrong is his choice to make. In the example cited, by the time the owner introduces people approaching ( the approach is done in increments to avoid an explosion of adrenalin) as a distraction, the dog should be real clear in understanding that a correction, if one occurs, is caused by the fact that he chose to jump up rather than choosing to maintain the sit, and has nothing to do with the approaching person.

I am going to break this response into multiple posts to make it more manageable both to write and to read.
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Firstlight
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29-01-2013, 06:54 AM
Part 2 of my response to Wryekin:

Your understanding of collar conditioning seems to be incomplete. You are describing, albeit a bit crudely, the final stage of conditioning, where the dog has learned to avoid the correction altogether by choosing to respond correctly. Of course no one is infallible, but the worst "mistakes" I see made with the collar are not unintentional errors on the part of the trainer, they are deliberate attempts to punish the dog via shock levels that are excessively high, to shortcut training, or to bully the dog into the desired performance. All of these are examples of abusive training and are disavowed by good trainers everywhere.

Yes, "distractions happen", and one of the most important qualities of a trained dog is that he will respond properly to commands even in the face of distraction. As for your dog "ignoring" you, do you not teach attention? Preventing a
behavior via leash and collar is fine initially, but it merely prevents an unwanted behavior, and does nothing to actually teach the dog anything except, in some cases I have seen, to bolt at the sight of the leash.

I am sure you didn't mean it when you said you "would prefer your dog fail" to "zapping him". Would you "prefer" he fail the recall when racing toward a busy highway? Really?
You are doing absolutely the correct thing to keep your dog safe via leash/check cord, but I wonder what has prevented you, buy your own admission, from teaching him a recall. Your prediction of Malcom's response to a collar correction may be dead on, but it could not happen if the dog was properly started on the collar, because the initial training is done indoors and distraction free on a 6' leash And you are absolutely correct when you say people who are lazy are abusive, refer to my shortcut comment above. Lazy people rarely do anything right with regard to the unfortunate dogs in their care.

As to the demonstration you saw: Now this is the kind of nonsense that wads my undies right up tight, because observers take it as gospel and evangelize the bad rep of collars. The reaction you saw could not have happened unless:
1. The collar was defective somehow; I have used several different brands and models of e-collar, and have never seen this type of defect, mostly a defective collar just quits working altogether. If this was indeed the case, the owner needs to get his money back and get the moths out of his wallet to buy better quality.
2. The shock level got turned up to high, either accidentally, or deliberately by some sadistic moron trying to "prove a point". The lowest level on my collars is barely detectible as a very slight tingle, and I know that from personal experience and from that of clients who wished to try it. When I collar condition a client's dog, they often ask if I am actually using the shock, because the only thing they see is the dog responding correctly; there is no vocalizing, thrashing around, collapsing on the floor, etc., nor should there be. I don't even know that a high level shock would produce the result you saw; I once saw a guy fiddle with his transmitter while the collar lay on his lap, contacts down. He boosted the shock level to high and pushed the button; there was no collapse involved, but he did slowly assume the fetal position in his chair for a bit.
3. I doubt this was true in the incident you observed, but I have occasionally seen folks voluntarily try the collar on themselves and way over-react, because by their own admission they were anticipating something far worse than what they got. They felt pretty silly afterwards.

I don't understand your comment re: my lack of response to questions, etc. I repeat, I felt the best way to answer questions that were actually presented as a question rather than a rant, was in the context of answers to the question I posed. I did not "disappear" following Brierley's excellent response, I do have a life and I made it clear I would be back. Jeez, you accuse me of disappearing, and Malpeki expresses surprise that I am still here, y'all are a sure a tough audience!

In conclusion (YAY!) Wryekin, it is apparent that you and I have different goals for our dogs, and thus different requirements for their training. I do agree that sometimes people expect too much from their dogs, but I don't view my needs as overbearing, and my dogs seem to agree. I have dogs that are very high-drive (I had one bitch which suffered a massive coronary on a water retrieve. I got her out of the water and she lay there for a moment, then struggled to her feet and stumbled back into the water to complete the retrieve, while I stood on the bank bawling my eyes out. The only force involved here was the force of her genetic desire to finish the job. I have had dogs that would cheerfully kill themselves to complete a retrieve, and one in particular spent her entire 13 years in search of creative ways to commit suicide, and to take years off my life. The ability to work off leash, often at distance from me, is a requirement of both hunting and competition; reliable response to commands, even in the face of strong distraction, is not an option if I am to have any hope of keeping them safe. And keeping them safe is my responsibility, because they haven't a thought in their heads about their own safety. I have something with my dogs that many people will never have, a true partnership; they have their job and I have mine (which is to transport them to the swamp, set decoys, pull the trigger then sit down and shut up while they do their
job!). There is no master/slave thing going on here, they would not tolerate such a relationship. I use the collar - properly - because it allows the dogs the freedom to do their jobs as they see fit, and because it allows me to keep them safe while they do it. It's just. that. simple.
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Firstlight
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29-01-2013, 07:04 AM
Brierley, I swear on my grandmother's grave I will respond to your posts. I spent almost all of today just trying to keep up with other posts, it is now 2am and I really really need to go to bed. Just know that I am saving your posts as the best for last. Thank you for your patience.
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Firstlight
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29-01-2013, 07:24 AM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
You only have to watch that supreme supporter of e collars CM using one on a black GSD to reinforce it leaving a cat alone-the dog screams in pain several times ergo the e collar inflicted pain on the dog

It is a well established fact that CM uses an e collar to "reinforce"his methods
I don' watch TV except for occasionally at the gym. I have seen his show a couple of times there, and in some youtube videos (altho not the one you mentioned, I will check it out). I didn't care much for what I saw, to put it mildly.

For those of you who feel the same, there are videos on youtube that show what appear to be some really epic CM fails (epic as in there is bloodletting involved - his, not the dog's).The dogs involved all seemed to be suffering from a mineral deficiency; I recommend treatment with 2 ounces of lead.
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Firstlight
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29-01-2013, 07:27 AM
Originally Posted by Malpeki View Post
WOW! you are still here?
you quite tough girl, he?

or didn't you just find any other forum, where you will find those e-collard partizans like you are?

as you are really just too funny

or do you really still believe, that here you will find anyone, you can still convince of your animal abuse method?

just ridiculous

you know what I would enjoy now?

you having an e-collar around your neck and me having the remote controll for it

and always, when you are asking your same annoying questions, always and always and always again, I just would love to press the button every time, just for to give you a little "shock"!

Wow, great and useful post Malpeki! (NOT)
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Chris
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29-01-2013, 07:34 AM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
Brierley, I swear on my grandmother's grave I will respond to your posts. I spent almost all of today just trying to keep up with other posts, it is now 2am and I really really need to go to bed. Just know that I am saving your posts as the best for last. Thank you for your patience.
No need to apologise

Forums are a bit of light relief and a place to chat, not a job of work.

A little observation on your recent posts. You mention high drive and the need to fulfill a job. Have you never thought of using that drive and need as part of training instead of seeing it as an obstacle to it?
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Firstlight
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29-01-2013, 07:43 AM
An urgent request: I have spent most of the day keeping up with this thread, and obviously will not continue to do that. I would appreciate if y'all would skim previous posts before adding one, so that you can avoid making comments/asking questions that have already been covered. In the interest of time, and to avoid repeating myself (which I am sure most of you will appreciate!), I will henceforth decline to respond to repetitive posts, as well as the types of posts I mentioned earlier. Thanks for your cooperation, and tune in tomorrow for my response - finally - to Brierley's most excellent post #46.
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