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Location: Essex UK
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 483
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Originally Posted by
Firstlight
This is a spin-off of the thread "Disappointed with a training class". I would like to start by addressing a couple of posts in that thread; unfortunately I do not know how to move a quote from one thread to another, so I will just note poster name and post number.
Wysiwyg, in post # 20 (which quotes my original post): You posted that "negative punishment", (I believe you meant negative
reinforcement?) is "
usually withholding something the dog wants". What other types of NR do you use?
Punishment vs. correction: Semantics here. To me, "punishment" aims to stop an unwanted behavior, right now. "Correction" occurs when a dog
willfully disobeys a command installed via the first two stages of training.
Gun dog trainers: From what I understand, trainers in the US are dealing with a different sort of dog than those of you in Britain, the differences being due to the requirements of the field events in each country. If this is a mis-perception, on my part please correct it.
Shock collars: Yes I use them, (as do a lot of my clients), and there is nothing "sad" about it,
when done properly. It is a tool, nothing more, and like all tools is only as good/bad as the person holding the transmitter.
Response reliability: Dogs are animals, governed by instinct and drives, and they have minds of their own. I would never expect 100% reliability from any animal.
Physical correction: Semantics again, and my fault for not being clear. I do not use
any correction in the first two stages of training, where it is inappropriate and harmful. I do not introduce (proper) correction until I am sure the dog understands the command.
I don't think you and I are as far apart in our methods as it may seem. Let me ask you this: How do you handle a dog which willfully disobeys a thoroughly trained command?
I think that's a genuinely interesting question.
But is it even possible for a dog to "willfully Disobey"?
I think probably not.
For a dog to willfully disobey I think he would have to think like a human and due to the lack of a highly developed cerebral cortex, he simply doesn't.
Dogs are conditioned to act in the way they do.
If they don't return to the handler when recalled then this is due to the fact that they have not been sufficiently conditioned to do so.
Even if the dog returns 95% of the time, this doesn't mean that the dog is wilfully disobeying the other 5% of the time.
He simply has a conflict of interests, "Play with another dog or go home" and he will go the the bigger reward.
Why wouldn't he?
It's for us to condition him into thinking, returning when called is the bigger reward.
I believe dogs learn through instant Karma.
If something positive happens they are more likely to repeat the behaviour that triggered the something positive.
If something negative happens, they are less likely to repeat the behaviour.
So in that respect I think a shock collar could work if the timing was correct but the question is,
Is there a better, kinder more ethical way of training a dog? and I think there is