He does not have to see his food as a treat! Cut down the meals you are feeding him and continue to use treats if it works better.

I'm sorry - I was under the impression you felt his training was better with treats.

It also depends what you are training, very difficult to train complicated chained behaviours without a high value reward at the end of it.

For basic commands it is easier.

Most people teach a sit with food at meal times.

The gundog trainer I went to was very open to other methods and very interested in the clicker. He was also impressed with what Etta was doing and her self control---all taught with rewards.

Whatever method you use I think it does need reinforcement on a fairly regular basis.

rune

It isn't a route I would go down with a young puppy.

The gundog classes I have been to do not use treats or rewards other than praise, however most of the dogs know the commands already. It was just a case of improving them.

Always remind yourself, it is the DOG that decides what is and what is not reinforcing....................

thats a good idea, the trainer had suggested i use his food but never suggested to still use treats just cut down food? ill try it as tbh his training is easier with treats i was just thinking that i dint want a podgy dog lol

I've always found that the best reward is the one the dog finds most interesting and have followed the above approach to make training exciting and fun. We mainly train with a ball but a piece of sausage flying out unexpectedly or a sudden mad run around together keeps it fun and the dog is focused waiting for the next exciting thing to happen.

I`ll use whatever works. I really don`t understand why people get so het up about rewards.
AFAIK you train in patterns of behaviour, using whatever floats the dog`s boat or what is appropriate to what is being taught. Then when it is established you phase it out, apart from the odd bit to reinforce the pattern.
Don`t see the problem, personally.

I personally dislike rewarding with food, for several reasons:

1. it's one more item I have to remember to have on me at all times. You've only got to forget once, and that's your training finished.

2. my dogs are not fed between meals. Anything they eat, however small, is food, extra calories that they do not need.

3. I dislike seeing food-rewarded dogs constantly sniffing at their owners' pockets or fingers.

4. My dogs are rewarded with huge praise - both physical and verbal - and that trips their triggers far more than extra, unnecessary calories.

However, having said all that, they each have one tiny little titbit each morning for remaining outside the bedroom whilst I get through the safety gate with the tea and coffee!!

I don't think you can "phase out" the food-based reward, can you? With my boys, that would well p. them off, to the point where they would sulk and take the ball away. I am not sure that's fair.

I use whatever works. I usually use food rewards for training sessions as I find them more convenient than anything else. For proofing and maintaining behaviours I use all sorts of different things. Doors being opened, toys being thrown, re-engaging in a game of tug, releasing him to sniff, verbal praise, fusses, basically anything that the dog likes gets used as a reward at times. I don't completely phase out food rewards but once a behaviour is learned they only get a food reward occasionally for it.

As for food trained dogs sniffing at hands and pockets constantly, that's not something I've found once some self control and rules have been taught. Spencer no longer mugs me or focuses on my hands, pockets or treat bag despite the fact he really, really wants food. Nor does my training have to end because I've run out of food rewards since there are multiple other things I can use. Environmental rewards work well in my experience although they're nowhere near as convenient for an actual trainin session.

I have a dog who works willingly and happily and who will actually ask to do something with me so I see no reason not to carry on doing what I'm doing

Really can't see the weight issue with titbits. I have never had a problem. In fact I slimmed Benj down from 36kgs to 22kgs and used treats for training! So please don't tell me titbits as rewards put weight on---owners not understanding how to manage their dogs food puts weight on dogs.

rune