Just obervations, but I see one or two problems. Firstly, you seem to have the mindset that a northern breed is somehow special/different and so learning theory cannot apply to them. It does - just the same as it does with any animal including humans.

This guy came to you with little training and he upset the routine/family set up in as much as your other dog(s) naturally had to adapt to the newcomer.

The fact that this boy descended from a dog you previously owned gave you and your OH a pre-conceived notion of what he would be like and constant comparisons are made and often used as 'excuses' for his lack of training.

In a period of 6-8 months, the lad was not only subjected to a new environment, new people, new dogs, but also to a myriad of training techniques offered up by various local farmers, gamekeepers, gundog trainers - none of which, at a guess, have used or are interested in techniques that don't sit well with their own ethos.

Mary Rae? Well, she's fantastic at what she does in the training sphere. However, if you get to meet her again, ask her how her own training has changed and improved over the 13 or so year gap since you last met her - not least of which has been her introduction of clicker training into her work.

No one will change your mind, Gnasher - you've gone from coping with the introduction of Ben into your family and at the same time trying many and various things to try to get him to work with you to finding what you currently believe to be the best thing since sliced bread.

I've seen it so many times before and also seen what happens when complacency and reliance on a training aid takes place.

I truly hope that Ben's current training holds and that he's one of those dogs where the single learning event has taken place. However, your reports of needing the vibration setting to 'remind' him of that event leads me to doubt this.

I also get the impression that it's your OH that 'rules the roost' as far as what is and what isn't acceptable in the name of training and that you have to convince yourself that he's right. Maybe wrong, but it's what comes over strongly in your reports

I`m not reading Gnasher`s posts because they all basically say the same thing. ( I am right)
I just wanted to chip in and say that anyone who can seriously discuss how much they should hurt their dog doesn`t deserve a dog.
You can train a dog with kicks, whips, clubs, starvation, isolation, blows and electric shock of all degrees of severity. The fact remains that it is plain wrong.
Hitting a baby a little bit is wrong. Giving an animal little electric shocks is wrong. Small acts of cruelty are no less wrong than big ones. It tends to be governed by what the perpetrator thinks they can get away with .
Deferring the torture by allowing someone else to do it (in your name), by using a machine (so you don`t have to feel the terrified creature) and by using that greatest lie - you brought this upon yourself - have been excuses offered by sadists throughout the ages
Isn`t it time we stopped allowing this denial of truth?

Well I am glad to hear that you will admit it when you are wrong ~ that's an admirable trait .

But I don't think having entrenched views is a good thing & is possibly contributing to your difficulty in seeing the sense of the responses to your deeds put forward by lots of other people on this thread. Having entrenched views implies having a closed mind, not being receptive to the ideas of others, a failure to accept that others may have valid opinions & more knowledge/experience. It's not a good thing & can be a big hindrance in life. It is a very inhibiting trait, not one to be proud of surely?

As for being a "maverick", I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this in how it applies to your character & views but in my mind being a maverick means someone who is non-conformist, unorthodox, unconventional, individualist & perhaps there's an edgy, rebellious connotation that some find appealing? But then you go down the route of using an ecollar!!!! which is probably the complete opposite of what a maverick would do. Surely if you are a maverick & you don't follow the party line you would not be so easily persuaded to give in to the use of an ecollar when you know, in your heart of hearts, that it means inflicting pain on your much loved pet dog? A maverick would be thinking outside the box, trying to find new ways to solve problems, not going down the tried & discredited "old-fashioned" route of using electric shocks to train a dog!

We're all here trying to help you & Ben to find solutions for your training problems and trying to persuade you & make you understand that ecollars are cruel & that training with pain is not the way to go. We want to help so please try to have an open mind, be responsive to what other people are telling you so that Ben doesn't have to be subjected to electric shocks ever again.

Don't know if I've posted this before but the dog we have that wore an e-collar in his previous home suffered a reaction on a patch of his neck where the collar touched. I found this out because I asked about his medical history when we took him on.
He hasn't reacted to any collar or harness he's worn in the nearly 3yrs we've had him. Only an e-collar caused this reaction. We have our own theory on that one!
Incidentally this is the same dog I've mentioned previously that had NO recall once he realised he wasn't going to be zapped in his new home.

Good post.

I have to agree with the Maverick part, you pride yourself in 'ploughing their own furrow' but all I see is someone who walks behind their OH in his furrow.

End does not justify the means Gnash

Gnasher, I think you have some kind of warped idea of what positive training is
It isnt spending hours doing the same thing and stuffing the same treat into the dogs mouth

A training sesh is usually very short, little bits spread tru the day
fast, fun and short, stopping when they are still wanting more
Treats can be anything - real meat, raw meat, stinky cheese, kibble, pats on the head, getting to go for a walk, getting the ball, being sent off to chase rabbits, getting to run some agility, getting to do some tricks (yes tricks can be rewards in themselves)

My Ben came to me scared of being petted, hating food and scared of toys
oh and smart

I had to take my time and find out what floats his boat at what time, when he seemed interested in some food I quickly introduced the clicker
I made sure he was in the mood and kept it short and v fun
then after a short time the clicker became the best thing in the world, sometimes he just spits the treat out he is so excited to get to the next click


Is there anyone close to Gnasher who could get a chance to see how impossible her Ben is to train?

That would be interesting and probably very helpful to Gnasher
Not forgetting this dog probably has Sibe in him (say probably for obvious reasons) I'd always exercise incredible caution with regards to recall, no matter how well he seemed to be doing.

not every dog is turned on day after day by the same mindless thing.

Not every dog is trained by a mindless thing that turns on a collar...........

How the flying f do you expect me to train my dogs when I am working my socks off 30 miles away from where I live?

I drive approx 40,000 miles per annum. I train in the dark, at 05:00 am in the morning or earlier, at motorway services, in car parks, at night, in hotel bedrooms, in my garden.

Where there is a will there is a way.

Yes I live alone and work
I train my dogs in 1 min bursts - in ad breaks when im watching tv, when im getting ready to take them for a walk, when we are out on a walk

5 min a day is more than enough to train a dog - we all have 5 min to spend on our dogs right?