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TangoCharlie
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07-02-2011, 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by sarah1983 View Post
If you know your dog then it IS possible to have a clue whether or not the lowest level would work. I know without ever having tried an ecollar that the lowest setting would NOT stop Rupert chasing sheep, he wouldn't even notice it if there were sheep around. A punishment needs to be harsh enough that the dog REALLY doesn't want it to happen again but not so harsh that it shuts the dog down. Keep upping the punishment a bit at a time just teaches the dog to work through it or ignore it. It's hard to judge exactly how harsh you have to be and I'd err on the side of caution if I used punishment but if you know your dog you tend to know what's going to freak them out and what they won't bat an eyelid at.

My last two were trained using choke chains and the trainer would tell us off for "nagging" our dogs with multiple ineffective "corrections" rather than one strong one that got the point across and stopped the behaviour you didn't want. It made sense to me because I always ignored my mums nagging or shouting but if my dad so much as looked at me a certain way I knew I was in big trouble.

Just to add, I do not use choke chains or any other type of physical punishment now and haven't done for the past 7 years.
That is basically what I am saying. The dog simply desensitises to each level.
I am trying to find a reference to the 'P-Scale' on the net.

I agree, for punishment to work, future behaviour must diminish so if the dog shuts down on the first punishment the future events will say if it has worked or not. I guess it is the skill of the trainer who uses punishment to judge what is too much.


(Thanx Tabitha)
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Adam P
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07-02-2011, 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by TangoCharlie View Post
From a science point of view I suppose that comment is from the fact that if you were to use punishment it has to be severe at first. Else the dog desensitises to it and the punisher has to repeat at a higher intensity each time and so on.

They have done an experiment by giving an electric shock to a dog starting at a low level. It was so ineffective that they eventually ended up giving the dog enough current to nealy kill it and it still wasn't stopping the unwanted behaviour. The dog desensitised to each shock.
So the technique in punishment is to start at a high intensity.
Well that's the science bit.
Be intersting to see which country allowed that, was it N Korea? anyway have you got the ref, I cant find it in science direct

Adam
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TangoCharlie
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07-02-2011, 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Be intersting to see which country allowed that, was it N Korea? anyway have you got the ref, I cant find it in science direct

Adam
Where was the Little Albert experiment?! There were few morals or ethics back then.

I am searching for the research.
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Adam P
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07-02-2011, 02:42 PM
Thanks, I see its an old study.

On the subject of punishment have you heard about that pigeon research were the desensitised to pecking the electric bar? Same princple.

Btw I prefer to use neg reinforcement to deal with unwanted behaviours, to make the dog subsitute wanted ones. With this you start at the lowest level, this applies to any behaviour even sheep chasing.

Adam
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Adam P
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07-02-2011, 02:43 PM
A bit more on spray collars.

the Masterplus is the delivery system for citronella, as far as citronella goes heres a couple of the hundreds of

Citronella M S D Sheets

http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/msds/md100301.html



http://libertynatural.com/msd/355.htm

Adam
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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07-02-2011, 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by wilbar View Post

I don't know if it would help & it's not foolproof, but a couple of friends have the same problem & they've found that if you're quick, you can tell from the sniffing & quick drop of the shoulder that they're about to roll. If you can catch them before the shoulder drops & make a big "yippee" sort of noise & start running excitedly in the other direction, you can overshadow the "reward" of rolling in poo! It does mean that you can't care if anyone thinks you are a mad cow yourself though

One of my friend's dogs has rolled in a dead & rotting badger carcass ~ that was absolutely gross & she was nearly sick just on the short drive home
Thankyou I have no problem looking like a fool on walks I do try similar things when I see her
Thankfully she dosent do it all that often - but when she does its her whole body!! such a lady

- I remember a car ride back from the coast with my friends dog who had found a rotting seal carcass and rolled in it
(sorry if anyones eating) it was a smell I will never forget!
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ClaireandDaisy
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07-02-2011, 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by TangoCharlie View Post
Thanks.
I think you get where I'm coming from. I only picked up on a comment about the first punishment and gave an example. I was then told I don't like dogs much.
I assumed you didn`t like dogs much because you said punishment should be the hardest it can be to ensure effectiveness.
Not a lot of evidence of positive training there.
I`d have said that punishment makes the dog feel bad. It doesn`t ensure a change of behaviour.
More importantly, it says more about the person doing the hurting than about the method.
It is not a `fact` that hurting a dog a lot is the most effective way to punish them. You clearly called it a fact. It isn`t - it`s a lie.
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TangoCharlie
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07-02-2011, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
I assumed you didn`t like dogs much because you said punishment should be the hardest it can be to ensure effectiveness.
Not a lot of evidence of positive training there.
I`d have said that punishment makes the dog feel bad. It doesn`t ensure a change of behaviour.
More importantly, it says more about the person doing the hurting than about the method.
It is not a `fact` that hurting a dog a lot is the most effective way to punish them. You clearly called it a fact. It isn`t - it`s a lie.
There is a difference between abuse and punishment. That is the point I am trying to make.
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labradored
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25-02-2011, 11:26 PM
Hi
I can totally sympathsize with you on this problem and considered using a remote spray training device on my boy too but luckily found an alternative so thought i would share....Ollie my lab (rescue...so no history except he was a stray and skinny) used to do this, he never ate his own poo but would sometimes eat other dogs that we found out on walks.
my first port of call was the vets where they took bloods which turned out to be normal and he was checked over - and considered to be in very good health. I then introduced some wet food into his diet along with his kibble in case it was a texture thing........
Another thing that helped us was scattering some really tasty treats on the ground at random points on our walks so he could search for these (with some encouragement) instead of looking for poos....
just thought you could perhaps try something like this with your dog just in case. Ollie has certainly improved hugely, i still chuck an occasional treat out for him to find on our walks now but not constantly and he quite enjoys having to seek out a treat. whether this worked for us due to this training or he just grew out of it or whatever i do not know...but it wont hurt to try
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