Well done rune for starting this thread.

I think, on the other thread, people were being too anthopomorphically emotional. I appreciate that the subject is hugely emotive & all of us may feel differently about it. But at least on this thread we can try to be more objective & perhaps debate things more sensibly.

I don't, for one minute, think that dogs, cats or other predators, have a concept that we humans call "murder". Killing of other animals, be they of the same species or a different species, is usually either a predatory behaviour, in which case we can hardly expect these normal, hard-wired instinctive behaviours to be completely masked by domestication, training & a full tummy. It's up to us to manage these situations. Or based on fear, possibly fear of the unknown, fear of very strange behaviour in another same-species animal, fear of being attacked by a fitting animal, fear of the noises made by an animal in pain etc etc.

Very rarely in domestic dogs, fights to the death, or at least inflicting severe injury, are caused by competition over resources, e.g. the right to mate, the protection of young, protection of territory. Dogs are social creatures & have developed communication systems to give warning signs to prevent such conflicts. Even a couple of dogs scrapping over a bone are unlikely to fight to the death & any severe injuries would possibly be caused by an unlucky bite to the jugular or something, rather than a pre-meditated & deliberate act to kill.

Dogs are biologically pre-disposed to be social creatures & to communicate with each other via body language, vocalisation, sight & scent. Their communication systems are relatively sophisticated compared to lots of other more solitary species ~ so maybe, when for reasons unknown to us, & completely out of context & perhaps frighteningly for the dogs, these communication systems go wrong, just maybe, it is a HUGE thing for some dogs. It could be so scary that they feel the need to attack & maybe this is heightened even more by the fact that this behaviour is coming from a dog that they thought they knew very well, & found very predictable. I don't always like human analogies because of the risk of anthropomorphism, but imagine how you'd feel if your mother/father/son/best friend etc suddenly turned on you waving a gun/axe (substitute mouthful of sharp teeth for a dog). This would almost be worse that getting attacked by a psychopathic stranger or a drugged up junkie, or surprising a burglar!

And then if you consider some other species in the feline world, infanticide is rife. Male lions & male cats will kill young offspring that they haven't sired, solely to bring the female into oestrus so they can mate & pass on their own genes. This would be absolutely abhorrent in the human world, but is an evolutionary successful & completely normal behaviour in the feline world.

IMO if we allow our pets to be together unsupervised, then we take those risks ~ but personally I'd rather allow my dogs the comfort of company of their own species, than separate them when I'm not around. And my cats also mix freely with the dogs when I'm not around. It's a risk I'm prepared to take for their well-being & happiness.

Cats are not pack animals

? I think you've misunderstood. She means pack in terms of 'gang', part of the gang.

I take a really simple approach to this , I have read lots of theory and much of it makes perfect common sense but the fundamental thing for me is Dogs are animals and as much as we consider them domesticated and in many cases highly trained, We may observe acceptable behaviour in them from long periods of time , but they are dogs, so there is always potential for behaviour that is not acceptable to humans whether its some of the specifics e.g chase instinct that are genetically linked or they have had experiences that make them exhibit non acceptable behaviour , the safest approach for me is never to forget any animal has potential to perform an act we would find unacceptable from pooing on the hall rug to attacking another animal. I think it is something we have to accept and respect as a pet owner and do our best to assess the risk and mitigate it but accept the potential consequences balanced with all the pleasure pet ownership brings.

Think you should read the post she was replying too.

You do not know if they did but stopped when the door opened.

In all situations in which I have seen this sort of in pack fight, or dog attacking a weakness or strangeness in another, the other dogs do pile in and with respect to the poster of the other thread, we don't know that the other dogs were not involved in that case either... One dog was covered in blood. But that doesn't mean that the other dogs had not got hold of the back or legs and just avoided getting as bloody.

I have seen this sort of attack numerous times both in my own pack and on the field among other dogs. To be honest I find it surprising that someone with a multi dog household and as normally so understanding about dog behaviour as yourself has not. I'm not a dog expert, maybe its something more common with the more primal breeds like huskies and greyhounds... Maybe it's more a big dog thing.. Or maybe there is some aspect of your training and the way you run your pack that means you have never seen it in your dogs.

The situation in the other post, though desperately tragic is genuinely something that could happen to any of us, and probably does more often than is reported... I will hold my hand up and say that I have witnessed two of my dogs attack another member of the pack in a way that may well have been to the death if I had not intervened, or if I had not been there, and yet I sit here now with them all curled up together, none of them hated, none of them destroyed.

No - maybe people need to step back and realise that dogs are animals. Not furbies with human emotions.

Humm......an angle I had not considered.....I have heard of Bitches killing pups as well.

Or at the very least love them and adore them but remember they are animals.

Woody is my squidgy little soft, cuddle monster Mummy's boy but I respect the fact that he can snap if pushed and keep him away from those situations. I also listen to his instincts and let him ''find'' his food occasionally and track and explore and chase on walks.