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Location: UK
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,096
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Originally Posted by
Wysiwyg
Sounds as if he's adept at what he likes to do
I've had dogs in the past who have chased and killed squirrels (very cleanly, horrid yet amazing to watch and at that time I had not enough control over them to prevent it).
One of my dogs also leapt on the back of a forest pony (long story, the pony was safe and bucked him off, I learnt a bit more about dogs and resolved to find out more about training!).
Looking back, I know those particular dogs would have responded to the sort of training I do now, in spite of what I witnessed.
Not saying necessarily that yours or all others would,
I prefer to speak only from my own experience here.
I wouldn't presume to say that you could solve this,
chasing is never easy and sometimes it's just best to use management/control as you are clearly doing
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DR solves around 96 per cent of his cases using his methods, without any aversive, and then the remaining 4 per cent he uses the specially conditioned spray collar aversive (using taste aversion as previously discussed either in this thread or another, can't recall now). He has worked with difficult dogs including a husky who killed sheep. (and for Adam, there have been dogs who were trained with shock collars but their training did not work and the dogs still chased). Also interestingly he's had dogs who have had problems with their brains which caused them to chase. Just goes to show that you never always know what is going on with dogs.
Sometimes it can be better to just kind of accept what you have and love 'em for their own character etc. which you clearly do anyway! I agree with the advice not to beat yourself up, don't do that, you have a dog who is clearly not an easy one when it comes to chasing.
Wys
x
That suggests he has 100% success on chasing problems with training, including going to the extent of using emetics to condition aversion with a spray collar, without needing to be resigned to using management for those that do not respond to training alone, or maybe he is including successful management strategies as a success, rather than just successful training.
In some of these cases the problem may be reduced, without being totally eradicated which may be considered a success, in so much as it is not a failure
People unsurprisingly advertise their successes, not their less successful experiences, but I do not know anyone else who achieves 100% in these cases on training alone, to the point that management and keeping the dog on lead in high risk situations is never needed. Even with apparent successes there is also always the risk of relapse at a future date.
I do know of at least a couple who have claimed 100% success in their methods when they had a certain agenda, and admitted to less that 100% at other times, to different audiences, with comments that some dogs will always need to be kept on leads around their preferred chase targets.
Even the behaviourist who had the licence for a certain brand of spray collars at one time, and who admitted using emetics, did not claim 100%, as there will always be dogs for whom the thrill of the chase, with or without prey capture, will outweigh any aversive.
Some studies have shown a high degree of success with electric collars with chase and recall problems, but as with any other methods, the studies do not show them to be infallible, as to some dogs the intrinsic reward of predatory chasing will outweigh any aversive, even emetics and spray or electric collars.
Emetics are not 100% for creating aversions in animals and indeed those humans who habitually binge drink with subsequence vomiting, or who continue to drink despite antabuse treatment, demonstrate that emetics will not always dissuade the most determined individuals, even when they recognise the connection.
As with the potential side effects of using electric collars there are also behavioural (and medical risks, particularly if the dog doesn't vomit) risks with using emetics including negative associations with other elements in the environment and the risk of handling aversion or handler aversion.
Maybe in a very few cases the cure is sometimes riskier than managing the problem!