Originally Posted by
wilbar
Just caught up with this thread again. Well done Wys, Brierley & Minihaha for pointing out the truth of the references cited by Adam
. And I agree ~ it seems highly unlikely that Adam came up with that response on his own!!
But even if he did, how flawed & outdated were those references!!! And how could anyone believe the views of someone being paid as a consultant for an e-collar manufacturer
Adam ~ there's a wealth of far more up to date, properly conducted scientific studies on the use of aversive methods to deal with dog behaviour & training issues ~ and they all conclude that the use of e-collars & other aversive methods are cruel, painful & compromise the animal's welfare. Some of the most respected dog behaviour organisations in the world have issued statements condemning the use of e-collars, & these include veterinary behaviourists, not just people employed by e-collar manufacturers! I am at a complete loss as to why you seem so intent on promoting their use ~ despite this evidence & despite the fact that you get so roundly condemned & put down on this forum.
Up to now I have given you the benefit of doubt in that your posts are polite & you haven't reacted to the vitriol. I thought that maybe logic, science & pointing out to you the harm you are doing to dogs, may have caused you to stop & reconsider what you are doing; that maybe, if you had an ounce of compassion for the dogs you claim to help, you would have looked into all the evidence we've given you on the pain & harm that e-collars & other aversives cause. I would have huge respect for you if had been able to do that & made a complete volte face & decided to study & use positive reinforcement as your primary tool.
But you haven't ~ you've continued to quote flawed references, you've demonstrated a complete misunderstanding of learning theory, you've only answered selected questions, and to crown it all, you've now shown that you don't understand dog behaviour at all by those video clips of your poor dogs.
Like Krusewalker, I've tried to speak against your methods, rather than you personally. But I've now given up ~ you are dangerous & cruel to dogs & you are clearly unwilling to even consider that you may be wrong ~ how arrogant is that!!!
I think it was Emma that has asked on several occasions, that if e-collars don't hurt, & the use of punishment based techniques are ok, why don't we zap kids with e-collars? Because it DOES hurt & because it's illegal. The following article refers to a father who's now in custody for "criminal mistreatment" of his children because he used an e-collar on them
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/pe...t_ok_for_dogs/
seconded by me
Like wilbar, i think it right to make the distinction between saying you are a cruel man and saying you perform a cruel act.
I feel you perform the latter, the video adds to that conclusion, the video also shows an otherwise reasonable chap with some good body langauge of his own, a calm demanour, good tone of voice, and possessing of dog training skills.
Its a shame you arent so aware of the body langauge and emotional level of the jack russell, or dogs in general.
Time is not an agument for using e collars.
These things shouldnt be rushed.
I have mixed dog aggressive dogs in with other dogs, you dont need e collars.
A careful combination of management (crates, stairgates, separate rooms, muzzles), routines and organisation (separate training), and emotionlly based training.
For example, prey drive techniques such as tug of war, the pushing technique, and using rubber rings as prey objects as a distractor/alternative for the jack russell.
For example, guided walking.
E collars are used to strip away that initial outer layer of aggression/reaction/over-arousal/lack of cognition and focus on the trainer.
However, they do so very very quickly, leaving the dog in a state of calm submission, confusion, repression.
You are correct when you say e collars, prong collars, and choke chains (*if* used without anger and stress reaction) are more 'efficient', as you only need to utilize their effects once or twice, so the application is even and the dog doesnt create resistance, so as not to risk physical harm.
Whereas, its true and ill fitted and poorly used halti, harness, etc, the dog can create more resistance to the handler and the handler can also cause the same harm thru their own frustration or stress as a handler can do with the prong/e/choke.
So the key to both sets of equipment is for the trainer to teach the handler to use them calmly and proactively.
Yes, the haltis etc will take longer and give allowance for the dog to have a freeer rein of reaction.
But that is the key point.
That is because it is an intuitive evolving process that takes into account ever shifting emotional states, contexts of the moment, and body langauge, meaning the dog is progressing with the trainer thru a symbioitc process of empathy.
So the dog is 'learning to change' in a manner which involves choice and gradual change.
And the dog should be allowed some side or small back steps or some 'wrongs'. ie, not needed to always move away form an othe rdog as a traini g rule, ie, not needed to alwasy have an imeadiate robodog recall when a vicinity recall is good enough. Etc, etc.
Allowing some managed behaviour from familiar to the old unwanted behaviour problem but not rooted in the old unwanted behaviour problem is a good oultet for the dog, and adds to his improving emotional stability and confidence.
Thats why OC principles are a bit counter intuitive at times, be they -R or + R.
All the above is thes the approach psychologists etc take with behavior modification of emotionally damaged humans, so the same should apply to other sentient beings, especially canines, whom share some human traits and emotions.
So i would take a few weeks or more of daily guided slow walking to strip away the same unwanted outer layer that e collars etc do.
Then once you have the dog congnitive, happier, calmer, responsive, then you can work on the problem, which is where other techniques such as prey drive training, classically conditioned treat association training, clicker training, operant condtioning look and treat training, whatever is best for the individual dog, come in.