Yes I have seen numerous sheepdogs come in from ecollar trainers who have fled from humans, cowered from any signs of being untied and asked to work, have seen them run across roads and fields, tails between their legs when they have seen any sign of crossness in their handler. I have also seen dogs live feral for several days in an effort to escape from humans after their previous owners use of an ecollar...

So yes, I have seen lots of body language from a dog that shows concern about the potential for ecollar use

you clearly haven't seen any of this?

Surely people who have decided that ecollars are the way forward for them google "ecollar trainers" and find someone like you?

I didn't know e collars were popular for wsd. I can't argue with your claims of course but my experience of wsd trainers is they can be fairly hard on the dog regardless of the methods used. Also did you see the actual e collar training or just the after effects, which could be caused by other training the dog experienced of course.
I've never seen such reactions in the dogs I've trained. I'm currently working with a little dog with big aggression issue's, To date I've used an e collar numerouse times on him. He show a positive response to the sight of the e collar. He also shows increased obedience and improvments in his behaviour, even when experiencing a stim he doesn't appear stressed in anyway (though its brief). Interestingly despite using an e collar based approach on him he is now alot calmer/happier around triggers.

To your second point, I think people come to forums sometimes read threads ect. That makes them think.
Btw this is the height of my web presence.

Adam

... makes me wonder whether this 'calmness and happiness' claimed is actually avoidance and appeasement.

Personally, judging by the reaction of others... i would say it is the lowpoint of your web presence - again we see things differently!

yep sheepdog trainers can be hard, by pet dog comparisons for sure! But many and some of the very top trainers seem to manage without an ecollar perfectly well!

I have seen dogs both before, during and after ecollar training. Mostly I have seen them come in when they have ceased to work or are too terrified of everything to even step outside of a kennel...

Again, I emphasise, I am NOT totally anti ecollar training. For some extreme issues, for a couple of dogs, managed in some ways, by a few very experienced trainers I can see the benefit of ecollars. But in my entire dog training life I can only think of perhaps two or three situations where I think no other solution was viable. The rest, I think, where wholly manageable with a bit of thought and effort.

That has certainly been my experience and observations with many.

Yes....mine as well.

I have recently been on a training course in the Lakes with a top sheepdog handler and he was explaining his take on e-collars. He was very open about how much force he had 'experimented' with in the past and the conclusions he had come to.

He had never seen the point of e-collars, (but has even seen people using them in National competitions )
He was lent one by someone knew and was telling us the story -

He had a dog that would not stop in strange [places - he had been working for a few weeks and was making slow progress, but as he had the e-collar decided to try it.

He placed the collar on the dog and cast it out - he had been told to use the command and then press the remote (which he did) and the dog dropped, he repeated this and was deciding that his opinion on e-collars was wrong - when he turned to explain this to the lady who had lent it to him, she mentioned that he might like to turn it on!

The dog was stopping fantastically, he brought it back and took the collar off and he could not do anything with it again - all the trust he had built up through training had been destroyed, he feels the dog must have had a collar on before (as it was not switched on when he was using it), but that was it - he said never again, the way the dog reacted to him afterwards was enough to show him how fragile a thing trust is.

Brilliant and interesting post!

having seen one dog cowering at the back of a shed, terrified of anyone approaching to allow it near sheep after its ecollar experience, then I agree, how fragile a thing trust in humansd.

Many ecollar people argue that the dog does not know that the human is in comtrol of the ecollar. I say BOLLOC"S to that. Dogs are among the brightest of living things - brighter I would suggest than two of my ex-boyfriends ! - they can totally understand that where there is no human there is no whatever they call it "shock, stim, feeling, sensation". It doesn't take any dog, let alone a bright dog like a collie, many goes to work it out.

To suggest anything else is to lack understanding of dogs in my view.

yes it would.
Surely E collar trainers are savvy enough to tell the difference?

.......oh well perhaps not or they would be savvy enough not to need them..

Just popping in briefly to mention something I read. I found this a few years ago on I believe it was the Pondersoa website, but it appears to have gone now, unless I cannot find it.

Anyway.
The posts about dogs cowering away from ecollar use reminded me. What was suggested for such dogs, as they are first being trained with the ecollar, was to just not allow them to escape and hide.

I believe the terminology used was "you can run, but you can't hide". The hard nuts would advocate using the stim and a long line to force the dog out.

Ie Some dogs who are trained using ecollars and who have tried to hide, have been forced out and MADE to obey, even if they are showing signs of extreme fear
So you will get ecollar trained dogs, obeying, but living a life of being basically bullied. They may even look eager, but they are trying to race the stim.

As far as I can ascertain, this above was applied mainlly to gundogs, but I can also believe that many people who use the collarswould apply it to any dog that is afraid, tries to hide - and then just have no compassion.

"You can run, but you can't hide" - so sad.

I believe those using such a method must be lacking something in themselves to be so cruel and unfeeling.

Wys
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