Well, it sure as hell sounds like you're positive that it's all nature, nothing nurture, and that it's more likely than not.

You know what, forget it. Good luck with your dogs. I hope nurture wins out this time around.

In life there are no guarantee's

I've known people loose their Dogues, Bullmastiffs and Staffies who have kept them for years socialized with other dogs to the hilt, yet still something has happened to set them off resulting in the death of a dog. What is so hard to swallow about that?

Sure I've made mistakes in the past and I am still learning 18 years later, I've learned you can't always trust your dogs 100% even with the best socialization in the world anything could happen and I will stand by the fact the risk could be raised when keeping certain breeds together.

It's always good to be fully aware of what could happen so measures can be put into place, rather than shutting your eyes and saying it will never happen, that's incredibly blinkered and rather stupid.

I'm tired of fighting this out with you (which was why I opted to remove that part of the text about 20 seconds after I hit post).

Like I said, good luck. I hope nurture wins out.

Who is fighting?

I'd rather throw the negatives out there based on my own experiences, try to fully prepare and educate people for what they could be taking on, it could change everything for someone who knows nothing or don't know what to expect, or possibly expect.

I think you'll find many large breed/bully breed owners feel exactly the same, I'm not in a minority.

You'll find a few people here have lost dogs or had dogs that fought because they thought they knew them, socialized them, done everything they possibly could for them, I'm one of them, I also know of others (someone always does) that have lost dogs because they thought they knew them it changes your whole perspective and makes you look at things a little bit deeper, enables you to weigh up the pro's and cons of putting yourself in the same situation and evaluating the risk involved. Until you've been put in that situation it's something you don't fully understand or appreciate, until it's happened.

It's nothing at all to do with socialization all my dogs have been socialized with each other and other dogs very well, taken to training, taken to socialization from very early on - it changes nothing, imprints nothing you can do your utmost best but there are still no guarantee's as to how that dog can turn out to be once fully matured - thinking any differently can involve terrible tragedies, it's a closed mind view.

If only you resided closer I'd invite you here to show what a well rounded (for now) lot I have, what could happen in the future, I have no baring over I can only work with them from day to day, which is all anyone can do.

Why do I bother?

If dogs become aggressive regardless of how they are socialized (which seems to be what you're stating, or at least hinting at), then every single bully breed dog would become aggressive when it matures. Period.

Yet they don't.

Nature and nurture are BOTH very important. And one CAN outweigh the other, but this goes both ways.

Explain why folks won't even risk not keeping certain breeds together when they cannot supervise them then ? As I know plenty, from Staffy owners, to Akita owners, Bullmastiff owners etc

Because there is simply always a risk and one many people including myself are not willing to take.

Sorry, socialization means nothing...It can play a huge part but no guarantee..

I think you'll find many breeds can become dog aggressive and there is squat you can do about it, whether those people step forward (some already have) and admit that, remains to be seen. I know a breeder of Bull Terriers whom shows, has dogs trained to a really high standard, yet all their dogs are dog aggressive, a breeder/exhibitor of American Bulldogs, again dogs trained to a VERY high standard but can't be trusted with each other or other dogs, a Bulldog living across the way that can't be trusted with other dogs at all in any way, of course I should put it down to those dogs being badly socialized with irresponsible owners Which couldn't be further from the truth.

And why do I know:

A couple who have two pit bulls, one 4, one 3 who not only get along with each other but with every other dog they meet (including mine).

A pit bull who is 1 1/2 and lives across the street with a pit bull/Bulldog mix who is 4. They both get along awesomely and with other dogs, including mine and the Rottweiler they were living with for a few months and who had been visiting there for months.

A pit bull who is now at least 6 years old and goes to the dog park where he plays with other dogs with no problem.

A Rottweiler who is just a big mush of a dog, who plays well with every dog he meets and is actually scared of my dog when she goes into Border collie stalk mode. He hides behind his owner's legs.

These are all pet dogs though, not show dogs, so maybe that says something about the world of show dogs.

I guess that puts us at a standstill because I think socialization is extremely important. A dog, just like a person, is not 100% what they were born with. Nurture does much more than just nature can.

Thing is, any of the above could change at any given time most people learn to live outside that bubble.

It's really foolish to think along the lines of everything will be alright all of the time, what might be fine one day could change the next.

Sorry should have stated - she was a 6 week old pup chosen from a litter of rescued pups

The notion that pit bulls are immutably dog-aggressive is belied by their popularity as service dogs in the US.