|
Location: UK
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,122
|
|
Originally Posted by
Crysania
Right, but she quoted and was responding to me.
It's also a blanket assumption to chalk it up to breeding. Some dogs who come from bad breeding can go far beyond that breeding with the right owner (especially from a young age). Some dogs from good breeding can become aggressive and nervous, fearful, etc. because of a bad owner.
And no two dogs in a litter are going to be alike. I just transported three puppies (litter mates) this weekend. They were dumped in a high kill shelter and who knows what the first 10 or so weeks of their lives were like (they're 12 weeks old now). But it's pretty certain that what they went through was the same for each.
One puppy was happy, excited, wiggly, and not fearful at all. He wanted to interact with us, rolled over for belly rubs, and was very much like you would expect a 12 week old puppy to be.
Another puppy was shy, but very sweet.
The third was absolutely terrified, hiding in the back of the crate and not wanting to come out to explore or meet people at all.
Three very different personalities all from the same litter. That third puppy could easily become aggressive out of fear if he doesn't end up in the right home.
To say "Pit bulls are bred to be aggressive" is just another blanket statement. Many pits born into the dog fighting world are destroyed or used as bait because they won't fight. Not all pits are going to be dog aggressive, not even if born to parents who are.
Not sure who gave that blanket assumption that breeding is always the case in dog aggression.
I said breeding plays a huge part in a dogs makeup, and I agree, that not every pup in every litter will inherit all breed or individual traits of the parents.. but thats no help to the one pup that does inherit the unstable/aggressive nature of one or both parents.
Nurture V nature can not be ignored in a dogs upbringing, and for some dogs , the nature will outweigh the nurture no matter how much socialisation an owner gives!
Originally Posted by
Crysania
This shows a complete lack of understanding of how much socialization and nurture can do for a dog. Many dogs are aggressive out of fear. And they're afraid of what they're not used to and have no experience with. The goal of socialization is introducing a dog to many other things: dogs of all sizes; people of all sizes, genders, ages, and movement; places with different floor textures; different noises; etc.
I dont think its lack of understanding at all, especially when you are talking from the horses mouth so to speak,
Many of DA dogs are so out of fear (as you say) but its not because they have not bee n socialized (some yes) but the fact their basic inherent character is flawed,
Some dogs will be DA regardless of socialization, but for many it can be stopped before they mature by proper socialization.
Nurture is very strong and I've seen a lot of research recently on how important socialization is in puppies.
Socialisation in puppies is extremely important,(we all know that) but it still wont change a dogs basic nature, most of the aggression you see in dogs will be born from a temperament that is unstable, or from a breed that is inherently bred for aggression.
I agree even then its not always written in stone, but you have a bigger battle to fight and sometimes you have lost before you start.
Even my parent's dog showed signs of what happens when not socialized to something in particular. She was never socialized with tall men and she was really scared of my best friend (who's 6'5") when she met him. It was not in her nature to be scared of tall men, but rather a lack of proper socialization with them.
My next door neighbor never socialized her GSD with other dogs (except the one she owned and the one across the road). Now he'll attack any dog except those ones. Is that in his nature? I doubt it. I just don't think he was properly socialized to other dogs and is now so bad that she can't even walk him during normal hours because he's that out of control. Maybe he would never be super dog social, but I don't think he would be that dog aggressive if his owner had done much more socializing when he was young.
I'm not saying that socialization is all and
that there isn't the possibility of some inherent personality traits that can result in dog aggression no matter how much socialization you do, but I do think socialization is much more important than you are giving it credit for.
Cant speak for Nicci, but from my own experiences I understand the importance of socialisation, and I also understand its not always enough!!
I should also add that sometimes a bad experience can result in quite a personality change and I half wonder if something happened with that St. Bernard that suddenly made him act that way. You'd be surprised how little it takes. I've seen dogs become much more reactive and aggressive after one incident with another dog going after it.
Fear can do odd things to a dog.
Exactly, and usually a fearful dog will be so through a poor character, which brings up back to nature V nurture
Originally Posted by
AshMan
DA can be nature can be nurture.
In some cases
no amount of nurture will change the DA in certain dogs. That is the point.
Exactly!!
Originally Posted by
Crysania
Yet
I get the impression the other poster thinks it's 100% nature and no amount of nurture will change it. *shrugs*
Either way, to say that all pit bulls are aggressive because it's just in their nature is 100% wrong.
Again, an assumption seems to have been made.
I think the point has been made that pitbulls due to their breeding /heritage are predisposed for DA, but as in all things in life, its never as simply as that!
A greyhound is bred to run, but some just dont like too, but the trait is there, a pit bull is bred to fight, some lack the enthusiasm, but the trait is always there, just like any other breed that is bred for purpose, the difference a dog that is bred to use its nose, run , pick up game, is not going to do the damage to other dogs when their instinct takes over, unlike a pit!!
Originally Posted by
lilypup
Ashman I wouldn't ignore any dogs history and I agree that you should research your chosen breed to ensure you can meet it's needs.
I don't agree that a breed will reach maturity and become dog aggressive. How does that explain all the dog friendly Pits out there.
Have to disagree, many breeds when they reach maturity are predisposed for dog aggression, as has already been said, many a Staffie owner will take precautions, in leaving adult dogs together, or dogs of the same sex, why would they do that ,, if as you say, its a fallacy that inherent traits are not there! ofcause it may never come out in their dogs, but then they dont take the chance, just in case!!