What have you achieved with the dogs youve trained?

Personal dogs & Clients dogs?

yes please do tell.
Only I can`t find any Adam Palmer listed as a dog trainer in Devon. Or is that a nom de plume?
Because it would back up your support for electric shocks as a training aid if we could learn more about your other methods
thanks

Hello Adam

I own Siberian Huskies, genetically driven to work in harness. I simply trained my guys to stop pulling when we were out walking. I walk two at a time and manage no problem, even passed livestock.

It took a while because they all run in harness, at times I thought I would never get there but I would never have considered using an e-collar to speed up the process.

I have heard of them being used on sibes with devestating consequenses to the dog/owner relationship.

The long road is always the hardest path to take but it ensured that my dogs and I remain in a place of mutual trust.

Take care.

Seoniad.

I'm just so pleased Wales is the first to ban them!!! It's nice to be the frontrunners for a change!!

Hi again

Startle factor.

It's such a mild sensation that it's the cotinuose nature of it that works, there isn't a startle reaction at the lowest level the dog feels. often when finding this level you will have to hold the button for 2/3 secs to see if the dog feels it or not. Once you know the level and do some training the dog realises what the sensation is about and while not startled by it registers it straight away.

Wilbar

Wth the predatory approach you work at such a big distace you have the dog calm, as an example sheep in pen at one end of fieeld, handler and dg casually walking at other end of field. If the dog is reacting to the sheep in a predatory way you invrease the distance until he isn't then begin.
With scenthounds and other dogs that track prey you can use the scent of the animal as a starting point. Usually a handful of wool on a piece of stick will do.
Of course just being on a walk will up the dogs emotional state, what's important is teaching the dog to be responsive to commands or none predatory in this state.

CAD
I'm not surprised, I've no website, nor am I registered with any organisation (I don't see the point) most of my clients are word of mouth referrals or from advertiseing in petshops vets ect.

Misflyn

I don't compete with my dogs nor have I ever suggested I train working or competition dogs for my clients.
Mine and my clients dogs are pets.
My training emphaisis is on reliable control around distractions and practical obedience. I'm not fussed if my dog sits straight or crooked as long as he sits.
I think it's better to have a few 100% commands than lots of 80% or 90% commands. Nothing against ob trainers though or aglity or anything else. I do a little fun aglity with my younger dogs.
Training wise my dogs know the basics and are reliable, they also know a few other things that are practical to me/them but are beyond the basics. They also know a few tricks.

CAD

E collars are but a small part of my training. I use a wide range of methods. My top three are utilising toys (mostly tug toys as this very motivational) clicker (for the accuracy and the tendancy to improve an owners timing and make them look for what they want to happen so they can click or praise) and using gentle guidance to show the dog what I want, they can be used on their own or together.
I do occasionally use other aversives than e collars, any type of physical restraint will employ an element of aversive. I favour well structured sound aversion were appropriate (Discs) and occasionally use lead corrections or verbal reprimands. With these aversives I favour the only do it once but make a big impression as their basically punishment. E collars give you the flexiblaty to use aversives very mildly and as negative reinforcement.
Most importantly I put alot of emphasis on the dog owner relationship. I'm not interested in the totaly dominance approach of some old school trainers, more in encouraging co operation as a team or partnership.

Re the shep, the owner and previouse trainers had tried a huge range of methods to correct the pulling. Including
. Penalty yrds, walking backwards, and about turns.
. Stand still and wait
. Clicker, lure and reward and targeting, mixed into the above methods.
. Evey bit of gear you can imagine.
. The old farmer method of swiging a stick in front of the dog as the woman walked, she actually needed the stick to walk and the dog went sideways instead.
None of these had worked. The dog was booked into a rehoming place for when a space became available. Fortunately she didn't need it.

Adam

Adam
I find it quite odd you only come on here to defend shock collars, do you work on a commission basis for a company selling them?
The only real people concerned with this outcome are the ones who stand to lose money on this ban.
This is an interesting study done and the outcome on e-collars in training
http://www.ust.is/media/ljosmyndir/d...hockcollar.pdf
and
Dr. Richard Polsky, Ph.D. in animal behaviour did extensive studies on this matter too and came out with a negative conclusion also stating it could increase a dogs chances of becoming aggressive.
Call it what you want, mild sensation, a tingle etc, it all leads to the same path, it is a negative feeling that the dog gets when shocked, you will also find there is no rule on the current of electric sensation that e-collars deliver they all vary. It is still cruel, if it can't go on humans then why should it be put on animals???
You say you put a lot of emphasis on the dog owner relationship but if you did you would not be saying to an owner lets shock your dog, that will help you bond, it can actually turn a dog if fear aggressive to increase fear aggression. If it is aggressive you can turn into into pain aggression. You dice with those consequences every time you use them.
If, as you say, you have a top 3 methods that don't include e-collars, I would think you could just stick with your top 3 methods and when you aren't getting results as quick as you would like not use e-collars, as a quick fix and if you look extensively into them you would find your "quick fix" can have long term effects on a dogs behaviour that is negative and more extreme than the behaviour you were trying to correct.

There is still no excuse to use electricity as a training aid, wether it works well in the right hands or not.

Dogs are dogs they are not a microwave, they dont require electricity to "work". They are a animal not a ktchen appilance.

Im currently teaching a chi x to walk next to a wheelchair wheel at a safe distance- wide, it is difficult, hes too small to use most methods, im clicking it, clicking when hes right, im sure zapping him when hes wrong would be quicker, thankfully he lives in cardiff so he will never have to experince that.

i hope the rest of the uk follows suit asap, i dont care if it works its still terrible.

Maybe the personsdog you used it on should have been rehomed, obvisley the owner was not suitable for it & now has fundementally let her dog down.

Re the shep, the owner and previouse trainers had tried a huge range of methods to correct the pulling. Including
. Penalty yrds, walking backwards, and about turns.
. Stand still and wait
. Clicker, lure and reward and targeting, mixed into the above methods.
. Evey bit of gear you can imagine.
. The old farmer method of swiging a stick in front of the dog as the woman walked, she actually needed the stick to walk and the dog went sideways instead.
None of these had worked. The dog was booked into a rehoming place for when a space became available. Fortunately she didn't need it.

I would suggst choosing ONE method & sticking with it may have been worth while,rather than chopping & changing willy nilly . Being a consistent Predicatble owner.

To be honest it sounds as if the dog maybe didn't get enough exercise - sometimes if you try sound methods and they don't work (if used for a decent period of time) you then have to think more laterally and consider other reasons, rather than applying an aversive.

It's plain that even if a few dogs here and there are "helped" (and I suspect some of them end up with miserable lives, like we can see on some US gundog videos and "obedience" videos where the dogs are automatons and desperate to avoid the shock, even on lower levels - hence the "ecollar walk" and the "scramble" ...) ... even if a few are "helped" we still have all those dogs who are abused, who are not helped but who are living in misery due to never knowing when they will be shocked, or making wrong associations like some of the dogs in this link:

http://www.apbc.org.uk/sites/default...nsultation.pdf

1.5 Eighteen-week-old Border Collie.
This dog was originally shocked at eighteen weeks old, to stop it chasing sheep. Although the shock worked to prevent sheep chasing, the owners reported that the dog was now chasing birds instead. The owners did not
know what to do, as the only method of behaviour control they had was the
shock collar.

.....

This is another example of failing to understand the motivation behind the
behaviour and relying on punishing the manifestation of the motivation, rather
than controlling or diverting it. Punishing the dog for chasing sheep reduces
emotional equilibrium and may actually increase the need to chase something
in order to correct the emotional balance. Consequently, the shock collar only
punished one aspect of the behaviour and relying on it did not provide an
alternative; the problem was simply displaced.

Personally I think it's clear shock collars are not to be tolerated and do need to be banned. I mean, look at this above - it's an important welfare issue for a dog with chase drive to chase.

I've never heard of anyone using an ecollar who also thinks of the dog's welfare and understands the very real hard wired need to chase ....

I saw someone in the New Forest shocking their BC for chasing squirrels. I let my dog chase squirrels (not intentionally, I may call her back and often do) but she has a very good chase recall from deer or other animals not for chasing. All done by use of reward methods and not shock collar. Also she has loads of opportunity to chase certain special toys she's been conditioned to prefer, hence her need to chase is fulfilled, unlike most of the dogs who are shock collar trained.

Wys
x

From the same link, abuse of a trainer towards an ESS:

1.6 Eighteen-month-old neutered male Springer Spaniel.
The owners of this dog were advised by a local trainer to use an Electric Collar to help with the dog’s recall as it wouldn't listen to them, especially when it had picked up the scent of a rabbit. The first time they tried it, the dog
did not come back, but lay down. The trainer went over and shocked the dogagain and then proceeded to shake the dog to get it to stand up.

The dog urinated and continued to stay down. The trainer went to shake it again and the dog went to bite her. It was shocked again and the trainer stamped on the
lead. The owners then decided enough was enough and left without the collar.

This case illustrates the escalation of the dog’s defensive behaviour. Its initial
reaction to the pain was to try to hide by lying down. This failed to stop it being
repeated. The “trainer” further punished the dog, resulting in involuntary
submissive urination. Eventually, unable to remain in the intensely fearful
state, this dog resorted to aggression to defend itself.
A common error in the use of electric collars is that although their proponents
punish the ‘wrong’ behaviour, they do not inform the dog what the expected
behaviour is. On this occasion the electric collar became a tool for a brutal
trainer. The use of the electric collar gave the dog an extreme fear of wearing
a collar and lead it did not previously have. There were undoubtedly additional
problems associated with increased anxiety, reducing the dog’s emotional
well-being and quality of life. That this appalling treatment of their dog went
unreported also illustrates the reluctance of owners to confront the
inappropriate use of electric shock collars by trainers.

Wys
x

I know it is lazy but I'll let the others speak for me.

I get so fed up of it. The only way it will stop is when it is banned here as well. Then people like AP will have to find a different way of training which doesn't involve electricity.

One of the funniest trainers defence for them was to say it wasn't electric as it was only batteriers----shouldn't laugh really but it did show the extent of the ignorance.

rune