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Location: Australia
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,032
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Originally Posted by
Adam Palmer
Hi again.
I didn't use e collars for sheep chasing originally, my first e collar case was an 18month gsd whos owner had bad arthritis in her hands. The dog pulled badly despite haltis/harness two private trainers and a class. The owner rang me and explained the situation and that she would have the dog rehomed if it wasn't fixable. I'd brought an e collar already and researched the subject, so decied to have a try.
I used it on the lowest level (the dog just aware of it) and used the sensation while pulling the dog back into a heel position. I repeated this numerouse times and then used numerouse distractions (dogs people rubbish ect) before getting the owner to do it, by this stage the dog understood what was required and the owner was able to remind her not to pulll by pressing the button, the dog would then go back to heel position. This allowed the owner to keep the dog (who she loved very much and who the dog was devoted to) and gave them both a far happier relationship.
I'm afraid I don't agree with that Wysiwyg, yes the sensation is unpleasent but no more so than a flea bit or a fly landing on the skin, it's effect because of the ablity to keep the sensation on then take it off. If you use the collar at too high a level that would distract the dog from the task in hand. I never up the level to show the dog what can happen, there's no point it would interfer with training.
Plymouth uni Rune bsc animal behaviour and welfare.
Adam
Dear Adam,
I really don't agree with your statement above or previous ones you have made, and a university degree can not give people common sense IMO and that is what is lacking.
For you to say the pain is not different than a flea bite, well we try to prevent fleas on our dogs and I have seen dogs in great discomfort from fleas biting them, so to even go on those lines, you are wrong.
The lady/dog scenario you used, sounds like you wanted the behaviour to stop instantly rather than putting in the effort to use positive methods. I would not employ someone to do that to my dog, I would be more than capable of purchasing an e-collar and doing it by myself rather than paying someone to inflict pain on my dog. To me your story reflects people wanting a quick and cheap alternative.
I disagree with that it can fix a dogs problems, it can actually create more aggression or confusion in a dog, as dogs are unable to rationalise pain and can't always link it to a certain behaviour, that is trying to be curbed.
To have to utilised an e collar to stop a dog pulling is ludicrous, many dogs don't need a painful stimuli to curb pulling it can be done through consistency and positive based training.
You say you have researched the use of e-collars yet fail to mention that some reasearch is anti e-collars, to be fair in research you need to go in with an open mind, so you can see both sides, you never mention the negatives of using e-collars, so I would suggest you went into researching them with a bias towards finding the good outcomes with e-collars and ignoring the bad.
To say the e-collar is mildly uncomfortable, well that is to say the least, can I put one on you and randomly decide what I don't like in your behaviours (such as writing such nonsense) and see how much you like it. I hope in your testing you put it around your neck as that is where the sensation goes when on a dog.
You say it is unpleasant, of course it is, it is a pain based implement, you can pass it off as a flea bite, but I have seen someone using them on their dog and I could only say that poor quivering wreck of a dog did not get what the owner was trying to make it do, and was not a flea bite response it was one scared and hurt dog, and these days I would not hold back on saying what I thought to the owner.
As for predatory drive in some dogs, some breed have a high prey drive, I would suggest to anyone, unwilling to accept that if they got the breed as quite lacking in foresight and research into the breed of dog they obtained. If they are unable to find a more humane way of dealing with their dogs wanting to chase, they should get professional help for their dog, not a person with a degree that wants to stop the behaviour immediately and with painful methods.
Prevention is the best cure. Conscientious breeders of predictably high drive puppies carefully screen prospective buyers to determine if they can offer the puppy a suitable lifestyle. Such owners will have a fenced yard, ample time in their schedule to exercise the dog, the physical ability to handle the dog properly, and sufficient knowledge of the breed and its characteristics. Allowing a non-suitable buyer to obtain such a puppy could inevitably end in disaster. A wise breeder will refer non-suitable buyers to pet-quality breeders where high drive dogs are not so prevalent, discuss the possibility of a more suitable breed for the client, or discourage dog ownership of any kind for those clients who lack the lifestyle for owning a dog.
from this site
http://www.canismajor.com/dog/hidrive.html
Would you be willing to use them on children to stop unwanted behaviour? As you suggest it is not cruel or painful (just uncomfortable
semantics??) I would think not as it would be seen as inhumane?? Or do you think I should give it a go and create a whole new market for them??
If it is so humane why have they even thought of banning it?? If it is doing so much good with rescue dogs, why are most rescues against them?? Why are their studies showing it can do more harm than good?? Why are their cases of dogs becoming increasingly fearful or aggressive when e collars are used??
Emma